Book Club

Marple Stories

Christie never intended Miss Marple to rival Poirot in the publics affections, but this spinster sleuth soon proved a hit with the public.  Here's the place to discuss her stories - but beware spoilers!

If you can't find your favourite Miss Marple story, don't worry - more will be added shortly.

Warning: These discussions may contain spoilers!

Nemesis

Moderator1 10 Nov 09 at 12:02 p.m. GMT

Miss Marple is sad to read about the death of Jason Rafiel whom she had 'worked' with two years previously.  His executor contacts her with a proposition that she should investigate a crime as Mr Rafiel requested in his will.  No further details are given but in a letter she receives, written by Rafiel before his death, he suggests she takes a coach tour around Britian's great gardens.  Too intrigued to turn it down, Miss Marple embarks on one of her most interesting, and dangerous, cases.

This was the last Miss Marple novel that Christie wrote - is there any sense that this is to be Jane Marple's last outing?  Could Christie have written it so that Miss Marple clashed once again with Rafiel?

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Tommy_A_Jones 04 Jan 12 at 1:46 p.m. GMT

These days we call things what they are but in those days people's sensibilities werre taken into account so Rape might have taken place even though the word was not mentioned and the Mother might have encouraged to think something was rape when the Girl might have been willing at the time and only afterwards regretted her Actions.

Sogba 03 Jan 12 at 12:15 a.m. GMT

I would like people's opinions on the representation of rape in Nemesis.  It was the one thing about the book that I found truly infuriating.  Quotes like: 'Well, we all know what rape is nowadays.' and the suggestion that a girl 'Doesn't stop badgering him until she's forced him to sleep with her.  Then, as I say, mum tells the girl to call it rape.'

Honestly, I am not that bothered by things like plot holes (how does X know Y is a threat to them, etc.) but this is something that really bothered me.

I would like to know what other people think.

Tommy_A_Jones 12 Nov 11 at 3:03 p.m. GMT

It was Geraldine McKewan that did the ITV version not Julia McKenzie

lgw 11 Nov 11 at 4:21 p.m. GMT

This is probably my second favourite Miss Marple book.  I loved the intrigue and twists.  Think I will reread it over the new year.  Thanks for reminding me about it. 

Tommy_A_Jones 08 Nov 11 at 1:59 p.m. GMT

I hated the ITV version, If ITV are thinking of redoing it prperly PLEASE DO. DITTO with Body In The Library and 4.50 From Paddington

murder_is_easy123 16 Oct 11 at 10:09 a.m. GMT

Not Christie's best, but it is still an absorbing and challenging read.  Miss Marple is once again out of the comfort zone of St Mary Mead, which adds to the excitement.  And the way she traps the killer is brilliant.  The killer themselves is possibly the most frightening and mad of every murderer in a Christie novel!

The 1987 adaptation is very good, and sticks true to the novel.  The cast includes Joan Hickson, Margaret Tyzack, Peter Tilbury, Anna Cropper and Helen Cherry

AriadneOliver491 05 Oct 11 at 9:26 p.m. GMT

i LOVE Nemesis and was very disappointed with the Julia McKenzie dramatization. IT WASNT A NUN WHO KILLED VERITY, IT WAS HER AUNT CLOTILDE!!!!!! I am very upset.

Roger_Ackroyd1926 18 Mar 11 at 2:53 p.m. GMT

Just enjoyed a re-read of NEMESIS for the first time since 1973 (though I've watched the Joan Hickson TV movie several times - even with some modifications, I still think it's one of the best) - I've retained a particular fondness for this novel - it's Mrs. Christie's best post-ENDLESS NIGHT writing and plotting, and has a particularly sad, elegiac quality to it, perhaps because it is so much about loss.  I feel it would have made a far more suitable 'last case' for Miss Marple than did SLEEPING MURDER (about which there's nothing 'last case' at all - do current editions even still carry this as a sub-title?) - NEMESIS leaves us with the assurance that Miss Marple will spend her final years in comfort thanks to Mr. Rafiel's 20,000-pounds, and that she'll certainly enjoy being able to treat herself to partridges from time to time!

Tommy_A_Jones 16 Feb 11 at 3:19 p.m. GMT

They Do It With Mirrors is a book I can't stand either, it is most definitely my least favourite Miss Marple book by a Long way but to say I hate it would be too harsh, I would leave that for Sparkling Cyanide, Endless Night, Death Comes As The End and Passenger to Frankfurt that one and Endless Night really are 2 books desperately in need of a Plot. at least with They Do It With Mirrors you know what it is about but there again the only Characters I liked (And I might have changed my mind) are The Detective and Miss Marple, I agree the Book is Unforgettable Unfortunately.

IMHO although And Then There Were None is good Why Didn't They Ask Evans? and The Sittaford Mystery are Better.

Mr_west 15 Feb 11 at 7:57 p.m. GMT

I hate They Do It With Mirrors, now that is one of her worst (maybe even the worst), I hated all the characters, the setting was not really interesting and the murder trick was very easy to understand

Lone_Wolf 15 Feb 11 at 7:45 p.m. GMT

"I think it is better than Pocketfull of Rye and Caribbean Mystery and definitely better than They Do It With Mirrors but that is just My Opinion, Oh yes and don't forget Sparkling Cyanide Which ones do you mean by the best of the worst?"

Caribbean Mystery, while fairly uninspired, aviods the rambling syndrome due to its short length. Sparkling Cyanide has a couple of interesting elements, though a dissapointment on the whole.

Mirrors, however, I found to be indeed worse then Nemesis. The setting of that novel feels very incomplete, plus a Family Unfriendly Aesop in the end to boot!

I like discussing mediocre and bad literature more then good one.

Mr_west 15 Feb 11 at 7:35 p.m. GMT

writing became hard for Christie in her late years. 

you can't expect her to write a masterpiecec like And Then There Were None in her age! she wrote as much as she could, and I agree most of her worst works were when she was old and sick.

 Nemesis is certainly not her best MM book, but it has some good parts and not only dull parts.

I think the realtionships between Clotilde and Verity is the most interesting point of the book, what a weird think could love be, and what it can make you do. it's very tragic, and miss Marple describe that very well when she explain the mystery. 

go_leafs_nation 15 Feb 11 at 6:32 p.m. GMT

The last books AC wrote marked a rapid decline in quality, and we got such unforgettable works like Passaenger to Frankfurt. (Unforgettable for all the wrong reasons, that is.) I think Lone_Wolf may be referring to that.

Tommy_A_Jones 15 Feb 11 at 4:08 p.m. GMT

I think it is better than Pocketfull of Rye and Caribbean Mystery and definitely better than They Do It With Mirrors but that is just My Opinion, Oh yes and don't forget Sparkling Cyanide Which ones do you mean by the best of the worst?

Lone_Wolf 15 Feb 11 at 3:40 p.m. GMT

I'd say that Nemеsis is the best of the worst.

Tommy_A_Jones 15 Feb 11 at 2:56 p.m. GMT

I accept there is a difference between Cleverly worded traps and the 'Unfairness' you see in Nemesis although I don't see it and I totally disagree with you when you say the Investigations are dull in Nemesis, I personally would use the word dull to describe some of the other books but not the investigations in 'Nemesis' I am sorry you don't like the book, Quoting DLS and Bernard shows you have a greater Literary Knowledge than me and that is something I applaud however much I think you are misguided in your feelings of this book just like I am surely mistaken in my views with some books like Passenger to Frankfurt, Death Comes As The End, Endless Night and Lord Edgware Dies which I personally dislike.  

go_leafs_nation 15 Feb 11 at 2:03 p.m. GMT

There's a difference between the cleverly worded traps many readers fall into in Roger Ackroyd and the dull investigations of Nemesis. As Dorothy Sayers pointed out, it's the reader's business to suspect everyone. The concept of fair play has to do with how well the clues are placed and given to the reader. Thus, when the murderer appears pages before the solution in Postern of Fate, it is cheating. Thus, when the odds of something happening are rivaled only by the odds of the detective figuring out that they happened that way, it feels like a swindle.

I still don't buy the explanation. No one would ever act that way. It's too risky and too contrived. You have to pile excuse after excuse on this book to create the illusion of plausibility, and as Barnard says, it's neither interesting nor profitable.

Tommy_A_Jones 15 Feb 11 at 1:46 p.m. GMT

Jason Raphiel doesn't give Miss Marple a Himnt because to do so might affect her judgement as I have already said I think and he doesn't want to say or do anything which might influence her apart from inlist the help of Miss Cooke, Miss Barrow, Professor Wanstead and Miss Temple and get The Bradbury-Scott's to introduce themselves to Miss Marple, to call it uninspired cheating is if I may say so Contradictory of you as I call the end of some books cheating and if I am not mistaken you have criticised me for doing so, Agatha Christie isn't the first Author I am sure not to dot all the Is and Cross all the Ts and I dare say she won't be the last, I can see we are feel differently about this book, to say the Plot is week is not right IMHO, It is IMHO one of the better Books Agatha Christie wrote. 

go_leafs_nation 14 Feb 11 at 8:20 p.m. GMT

So why does Rafiel tell Cooke and Barrow, but withhold such a hint from MM, whom he's enlisted to help him? Wouldn't a little hint along the lines of "keep your eye on Lady Horsefeather" or "I never trusted that great big oaf Bates" help figure out what she's investigating, or who the suspects are, or whatever?

The problem with just using the excuse "the plot says so" is because it's stupid. If the entire solution hinges on the fact that the victim had to look at the ceiling at precisely 7:20:18 pm and the author provides no earthly reason WHY the victim did such a thing at that particular time, it is uninspired cheating, no more. Similarly, handwaving and using "the plot says so" inspires the feeling of being swindled, especially in the case of a weak plot as in Nemesis. If a book has a stronger plot, people might not mind so much. This plot barely exists.

Robert Barnard puts it best. "Miss Marple is sent on a tour of stately gardens by Mr Rafiel. The garden paths we are led up are neither enticing nor profitable. All the usual strictures about late Christie apply."

Tommy_A_Jones 14 Feb 11 at 5:05 p.m. GMT

Knowing something and being able to prove it is 2 different things, perhaps he wasn't in a Position to get Evidence and Miss Cooke and Miss Barrow aren't the type of people the Bradbury-Scott's and Miss Glyn would invite into their home without them asking Jason Raphiel why and he couldn't really tell them could he? Prerhaps the Police wouldn't start an investigation on the Flimsy evidence he might have hadf, Perhaps he wanted a2nd Opinion before going to the Police, he is a shrewd Man who would want to Mull things over and take advice from someone he trusted like Miss Marple before taking such action and anyway what is wrong with letting things hapen in a certain way because 'the plot says so'? If it wasn't for th Plot there would be no book, that is like saying that a Character in a Film sahouldn't do something the Viewers know they shouldn't, if they didn't the Film would be very short and it is the same with this, if Raphiel had told the Police thre would be no book, It wasn't me who first asked how Miss Marpe knew about the Treatment in Switzerland I wass just trying to show that not everything is always explained and left to the Reader to Ponder about.

go_leafs_nation 14 Feb 11 at 4:46 p.m. GMT

The goitre of A murder is announced is fairly well-explained, and any assumptions that have to be made are reasonable. Not so in Nemesis. If Rafiel had an idea of who the killer was, why bother telling Cooke & Co.? Why not just tell Miss Marple intead of leading her up the garden path? For that matter, why not tell the police? (Why? Because the plot says so.) It makes no sense. The entire plot is built up on a series of ludicrous fabrications. Like I said, it's AC at her worst.

Tommy_A_Jones 14 Feb 11 at 4:12 p.m. GMT

Who knows what Jason Raphiel has told Miss Cooke and Miss Barrow, perhaps he has told the people who he got ogether more than he told Miss Marple as he didn't want to tell her too much as that might inflence her, Perhaps he has an idea who the Murderer is and told them who he suspects, perhaps as they are obviously Detectives themselves they have worked it out but haven't got anyway of proving it but as Miss Marple is going to stay with X she is in a position to get it, unless I am very much mistaken and I very well might be there are things in the books which aren't always explained like The Goitre business in A Murder Is Announced I like Nemesis and can't say this Flaw bothered me (If I noticed it), I am sorry you won't be reading it again Go_leafs, I enjoyed it so I will be.

Mr_west 12 Feb 11 at 9:40 a.m. GMT

when I read the book I didn't think about this flaw. I remember that in my edition of the book miss marple said that someone from the village could have know Miss Temple is there. Miss Temple was a very famous woman and I think the killer could have know if she is miss temple or someone else with the same name.

also, miss marple said a few times that miss Temple is traveling with the tour for special reason (I remember she said that to archdeacon Brabazon), I don't remember if she said it when Clotilde was around but it's possible, anyone know if she said that to the sisters?

and if not, so that is a flaw and I guess AC just forgot about it or couldn't explained that 

Lone_Wolf 12 Feb 11 at 8:59 a.m. GMT

I actually liked the book more on second reading. All of its flaws (a couple of unexplained plot points and much reduntant padding which does little for the plot or characterization) were very evident for me on first reading, while on second reading I could concentrate on good points more and skip the most redundant bits. It could've been a really good book with lots of merciless editing. 

The Hickson film did a nice job of removing some of the bad bits, though it overly romantized the plot.

go_leafs_nation 11 Feb 11 at 10:04 p.m. GMT

But it's never explained. It could have simply been someone with the same name, and I don't even remember whether they met beforehand or not because the book made such a small impression on my mind. My point is, the killer had no way of knowing that this was the right person to kill or that they had a reason to kill them.

Mr_west 11 Feb 11 at 9:16 p.m. GMT

well, the killer maybe thought Miss Temple know something because she was the heasmaster in Verity's school, she could have told her something her fears or about her plans.

and of course there is always the possibilty that the killer is psychic, no one said she is perfectly sain. 

go_leafs_nation 11 Feb 11 at 9:08 p.m. GMT

Mr_west

the killer could know she's coming. maybe miss marple told her when they chat about how she enjoy the trip or something like that.

All right, let's say that happened (which I don't think it did). So they know X is in the area. Now how do they know that X poses a threat to them in any way whatsoever?

Answer: They don't. They must be psychic.

It's one of the biggest flaws of the book, and the Hickson adaptation tried to fix it, and did a half-decent job.

Mr_west 11 Feb 11 at 9:03 p.m. GMT

the killer could know she's coming. maybe miss marple told her when they chat about how she enjoy the trip or something like that.

about Miss Cooke and Miss Barrow, I really don't know, maybe they just understand or wanted to be carefull because they thought the killer is one of the sisters.

go leaf I love interesting murder methods too, pushing or crushing things are the best, but my favorite murder method is stabbing.

go_leafs_nation 11 Feb 11 at 7:05 p.m. GMT

There were quite a few. The most obvious ones: how did Miss Cooke and her friend (whose name I totally forget) suddenly tumble to the killer's identity? How did the killer know that their second victim was even around at the time, not to mention that they knew too much and had to be shuffled off this mortal coil post haste? They're never explained. If I read the book again, which is unlikely, I'll have to list them all.

Tommy_A_Jones 11 Feb 11 at 3:11 p.m. GMT

I can't remember threads being left dangling, I think news of the Wedding would have got round, I Loved the Charcters and thought it was a nice change not having a Policeman, but I totally agree it was far better than Passenger To Frankfurt butI obviously liked Postern of Fate more than you go_leafs which I admit was boring in parts.

go_leafs_nation 11 Feb 11 at 2:29 p.m. GMT

Illness or not, it's still one of her worst. Plot threads are left dangling in the wind unresolved, the dialogue is flat and often repeats things we've already been told seven times, the characters are unmemorable... The only thing to be said for it is that it's actually coherent, unlike most of the ones written late in AC's career (such as Postern of Fate and Passenger to Frankfurt), and the second murder is done with a fairly interesting method. Christie, like many other GAD authors, went through a sharp decline in quality late in her career.

Mr_west 11 Feb 11 at 2:13 p.m. GMT

You have to remember, it's one of her last books and she was very old and sick at the time. It's right that nothing actualy happened in the book but I still think that is not one of her worst. maybe it's just a book for one time reading, it's not one of the best but not one of the worst (if you consider her age and illness). 

I think I will watch your videos  (if you'll do them)

go_leafs_nation 11 Feb 11 at 1:16 p.m. GMT

When I first read this book, I loved it, but it does not hold up well at all on rereads. It's ridiculous in a lot of ways, including a murderer who had to be psychic to kill their 2nd victim, and characters who were frankly boring. Not much happens in the book and attempts at characterization fall flat. I think it's one of AC's worst.

I'm starting to consider reviewing things via videos on YouTube, or something of the sort, seeing as I'm almost always reading some book or other.

Mr_west 11 Feb 11 at 11:04 a.m. GMT

pretty average mystery, but very powerful book.

I love the way she used the word "Love" as a motive for murder, it's really the most frightning word.

I feel sorry for Clotilde and for Verity even more,they  both suffered a lot because of each other. one think I still don't understand, how Clotilde knew about the wedding? 

MissQuin I read your post of Then There Were Nune, LOL.

The adaptation of McEwan was terrible! they changed every think they could and cut all the important characters, just like they did in Appointment With Death. 

but on the other hand, I'm a great fan of nuns LOL

Tommy_A_Jones 08 Jan 11 at 4:30 p.m. GMT

I think the book waffles on too much about evil people, ACs later work does go on a bit too much about Mental Ilness The Evil in people and Passenger to Frankfurt's message is that The World is going to Hell in a Hand-Cart whixh was apopular feeling in the 70s.

The Adaptation of Nesesis was of the time it was made when People wanted more romanticiuzed Adaptations of Agatha Christie, before suddenly all that seemed Old-Fashioned, IMHO a couple of Comedians died in the 80s (Infact in the same year) which meant that some 'Comedians became Famous too early which changed the Landscape of Comedy and Televiusion aswell and so people preferred more 'Realiosm' and Harder Edged 'Enterttainment' so we shan't see Asaptations like the Joan Hicksons, The Seven Dials Mystery, Why Didn't They Ask Evans and The Secret Adversary again I am sad to say which in my Opinion is a shame.

Lone_Wolf 08 Jan 11 at 3:09 p.m. GMT

The main idea of that book is great, and the murderer is definitely in top 5 of Christie's interesting, memorable, murderers. The writing itself, however, I find to be pretty bad, typical of very late Christie, with all that rambling around with characters who at great length repeat the information we've known before, adding perhaps a single word of new info. There's a whole chapter of talk between old Mr. Rafiel's lawyers that only repeats everything Mrs. Marple already learned about and doesn't add much to characterization, either - the editors should've taken that chapter out altogether.

I found it interesting that the Hickson film, while being true to the book's spirit in general, still softened and romanticised the plot a bit. (See film!Michael OTT nobility and goodness, the fact that he isn't in prison and the addition of that house he inherits in the end).

TheCapitalist 08 Jan 11 at 2:55 p.m. GMT

I am a Poirot fan, but this is my favouite book.  Though you can argue, that it lacks the complexity of others, I think that the writing is first class.

Pongo 31 Aug 10 at 2:40 p.m. GMT

OK!  I will take a look!  

MissQuin 31 Aug 10 at 1:07 p.m. GMT

I put my response to your Hitchcock comment,  on the link below topic, to keep it off the Nemesis thread:

http://www.agathachristie.com/forum/have-your-say/television-and-film/hitchcck/

Pongo 31 Aug 10 at 5:13 a.m. GMT

MissQuin, mystery solved!  Sounds like a good deal to me!!  Wish there was something like that here, but alas...

I wouldn't mind getting some things for free.  You like Hitchcock films?  Getting my hands on some Hitchcocks for free would be nice.  It's funny that you mentioned Hitchcock because Vertigo is one of my favorite films ever, and I just got done watching for the Nth time a blu-ray of North by Northwest

MissQuin 30 Aug 10 at 4:21 p.m. GMT

Pongo

MissQuin,

What do you mean by "given away free in our papers"?  Are you in publishing or the newspaper trade?  Where do you hail from, MissQuin?  Or are you as mysterious as your name suggests? 

Heh, no mystery! Our Daily Mail paper gave a few JH Miss Marple's and a few Poirot DVDs with the paper. So you buy the paper and have a free DVD. Very nice. Ive also had lot's of Hitchocks and classic drama ones that way. Our papers must be good for value for money here in the UK!

Pongo 30 Aug 10 at 1:57 a.m. GMT

One more thing:

The change the TV version (Joan Hickson version) made to the "accident" was a welcome change.  In the book, the accident involved falling boulders.  In the TV version, the accident involved a statute falling on poor Miss Temple as she is swept up in reading the John Donne poem "A Nocturnal upon St. Lucy's Day". 

He ruined me, and I am re-begot

Of absence, darkness, death; things which are not.

The poem itself is a perfect supplement to the theme of Nemesis regarding the ambiguous, perhaps even destructive, nature of love. 

Pongo 30 Aug 10 at 1:44 a.m. GMT

MissQuin,

The Joan Hickson series is, on the whole, heaps better than the current series incarnation.  While there are certainly some bad ones in there, even the bad ones have their moments of brilliance.  You should definitely watch them all.  (The last 2 minutes of They Do It With Mirrors, and the very very last scene in The Mirror Crack'd from Side to Side are perhaps the most moving in all of Christie adaptations). 

What do you mean by "given away free in our papers"?  Are you in publishing or the newspaper trade?  Where do you hail from, MissQuin?  Or are you as mysterious as your name suggests? 

I am from, and am currently living in, Japan.  When I was a kid, I lived for about four years in England, just around the time that Poirot first began airing on British television.  I also remember first seeing Sleeping Murder as a kid when it first aired on BBC 1 in the late 80s.  It was divided into two parts, and the second part was shown a week later.  I remember that week being so UNBEARABLY LONG!!  I couldn't wait until I found out what happened!!!  So, I read the book Sleeping Murder during that week, and that was how my Christie fix began (for some reason, I remember being all proud of myself that, at the time, I recognized that the actor who played Jackie Afflick was the fellow from those Carry On films, and I had a little crush on Gwenda Reed ). 

MissQuin 29 Aug 10 at 5:30 p.m. GMT

Awwww! That's a lovely end. Ive not seen all the Hckson's yet. Ive olny seen the ones given away free in our papers.

what country are you from Pongo?

Pongo 29 Aug 10 at 1:44 p.m. GMT

MissQuin, Thank you for another great post.  

SPOILERS TO NEMESIS (Joan Hickson version) BELOW

The scene you described also gets me every time I watch it!  When they all run out of the house, calling out "Tilly!" "Clotilde!", and then, after Anthea gives her little speech, Miss Marple calming and coldly explains that "This marks Verity's grave", indicating that part of the garden where Clotilde now lay dead.  

I also love the very last scene, where Miss Marple finally and at long last meets Michael Rafiel face to face.  Her "how do you do?" is so loaded with feeling.  And then, she reads the note from Mr. Rafiel.  "Thank you Miss Marple, my Nemesis.  Shall we meet again?  Yours, Jason Rafiel".  Just gets me every time.  

MissQuin 27 Aug 10 at 6:09 p.m. GMT

The Then There ere Nuns has kept people entertained. It was fun that people added bits to the story.

Nemesis spoilers: I enjoyed the Hickson version of Nemesis. It it had a fault it would be it was quite slow to start off with. But it picked up.

The last couple of scenes are truly brilliant. Clotilde is really chilling and even though I knew what happened, I felt really tense. Then Clotide drank the posioned milk, then ran out into the garden. She died lying on top of the mound where Verity was buried. I got tearful at that point, because it was so complex. It was disturbing that someone would die where their victim was buried. But the fact she loved Verity enough to be with her when she died, it's all so tragic and bittersweet and twisted. It tapped into the motives and mood of the orginal story.

It's a mark of good acting that it could draw me to tears. If it was lame, badly acted and cheesey, then it would have no power over my emotions at all.

Pongo 27 Aug 10 at 4:22 p.m. GMT

MissQuin, your earlier posts about nuns had me on the floor in stitches!!  

I completely agree with you about how a bad adaptation puts Christie in a bad light. 

I think what I hated most about Nemesis: Nuns Attack is how they butchered the Clotilde character.  In the novel, she is meant to be Clytemnestra incarnate, a towering figure in the pantheon of Christie baddies.  

In the Joan Hickson version, Margaret Tyzack (am I spelling it correctly?) is just pitch perfect (all the way down to the creepy, CREEPY way she calls milk "a milky drink") .  

In Nemesis: Nuns Attack, Clotilde becomes just another psychotic, without the grandeur or the composure that befits Clotilde the character.  

MissQuin, what do you think about the Joan Hickson version of Nemesis?  

MissQuin 27 Aug 10 at 10:34 a.m. GMT

I sometime get rather miffed with changes. I don't fly into a rage if someone's character is made homosexual. But if overall the adapt is bad, if makes it look as if Chrsitie was a bad writer. Which she wasn't.

The Nemesis was a frothy version with sylish dresses and no real substance. The coach scenes are particually bad. Yet some of the actors in in were good ones, but because the changes were so bad, it wasn't noticeable.

Pongo 27 Aug 10 at 6:33 a.m. GMT

Nemesis is really interesting in that the Joan Hickson version is, in my view, the greatest Christie adaptation ever, and the Geraldine McEwan version is, without a doubt, the worst Christie adaptation ever.   

While I will be the first to admit that the Joan Hickson series as a whole is far from perfect, and while I admit that there are some duds there as well, there is no getting around the fact that the Geraldine McEwan version is a complete artistic failure. 

I saw this and The Body in the Library.  While I could just barely tolerate The Body in the Library, I found Nemesis to be so intolerable that I refuse to watch any further Miss Marple adaptations, and I refuse to acknowledge their existence. 

I am perfectly open to changes to story.  Heck, I am fine with drastic changes if it results in an interesting story that illuminates the original source material.  For example, I rather like the Suchet version of Appointment with Death, and I do not mind Cards on the Table.  I even will go so far as to say that I really like the recent Murder on the Orient Express.  I will even admit to not being bothered by the infamous Body in the Library. 

I also am aware that the Joan Hickson version of Nemesis made some significant changes to the story (such as the introduction of a whole new story thread with Michael Rafiel and the introduction of a new character Lionel Peel).  However, the critical difference is that these changes worked to improve the story, while the changes in the new Nemesis seem like those of a film-school dropout who never read a Christie book but liked stories about evil nuns. 

As a Christie fan, I am insulted by the new version of Nemesis. 

MissQuin 26 Aug 10 at 4:25 p.m. GMT

I agree that alot of the Marple episodes have been either dumbed down, overacted or made explicit. The fact that Chrisite makes the readers judge chaarcters for themselves, makes them work parts out is much better.

The Nemses episode with McEwan was turkey. I didn't like it much, it was all very glossy, the church scene was a relief as it was much more restrained.

In fact the book is rather restrained, the final scene is where we see a real outburst. This tension mounts more that way.

Pongo 25 Aug 10 at 3:59 a.m. GMT

There are some really nice touches that the author made.  For instance, I admire Dame Agatha for portraying Miss Marple as somewhat forgetful, especially in the opening chapters, where we see Miss Marple struggling to remember names, etc.  I think there is one point where she forgets the name of Major Palgrave from A Caribbean Mystery.  It gives the book a slight sadness in that we are being directly shown the weakness of this wonderful character.  However, this was especially nice considering that the novel is a "murder in the past", where the key to understanding the mystery is to have characters remember correctly what happened. 

Also, as has been commented on in this forum already, Miss Marple's take on the Three Sisters is very interesting.  I think Miss Marple says that, had she had her way in a staging of "Macbeth", she would have the three witches appear as normal as possible because it is in their normalcy that they would exude the most menace (which, of course, leads right into her take on the Bradbury-Scott sisters).  To me, this statement says so much more about what the world of Agatha Christie is, the notion of the sinister masking itself as normalcy.  Things are never overt or what they appear to be on the surface. 

I do so wish that the current Marple series producers would take their cue from the novel's Jane Marple and stage their TV films with more emphasis on normalcy rather than on overtly outlandish and not-at-all subtle characterizations of the Christie characters.  In my view, there is no subtelty at all to the new Marple films; everything has to be laid on thick, with an overdose of shoeshine polish. 

xrysoula 30 Jun 10 at 9:40 p.m. GMT

For those who haven 't looked it up, Nemesis was a lesser godess in ancient greek mythology, born by godess Night without male participation. She represented merciless justice and specialized in the severe punishment of those who defied the laws of the gods, who had particular intolerence towards the arrogant.

Ancient greek mythology is a fascinating subject and, judging from AC 's frequent mentioning, she  was familiar with it, as well as the most well-known tragedies of classic ancient greek writers- she refers to Clotilde as Klitemnistra.

Everything else has already been said.The title fits this novel like a glove- a great story and a dramatic finale for dearest Miss Marple. 

MissQuin 23 Mar 10 at 3:18 p.m. GMT

I thought about the nuns having a breakdancing contest, but that's taking things too far!  

AndreaWilkins 23 Mar 10 at 11:37 a.m. GMT

lol :)

MissQuin 22 Mar 10 at 3:22 p.m. GMT

Glad your enjoying Then There Were Nuns, my moment of silliness has transformed into something bigger! I thought Keria Knightly would make a good Bundle, but if you prefer her as a nun who gets shoved over the edge of cliff, that's fine.

So we have Jane Fonda, Keria Knightley,  Meryl Streep. All star cast! we need to have total of 12 nuns. more suggestions please!

3rdGirl 22 Mar 10 at 2:46 a.m. GMT

I love "And then there were Nuns...."! Hysterical. Let's keep casting it! Sally Field would definitely have to be in the cast somewhere, and Joan Collins. And can we have Keria Knightly as a young novice nun so we can bump her off??? I detest her and her pouty ways!

MissQuin 21 Mar 10 at 12:47 p.m. GMT

Well I'd watch it! It would be very funny o have him sponser Then There Were Nuns. The Marple's on TV have had some mad moments, where I cant comprehend what has been done for the plot. Adding meerkats could be the next things.

I have started simples spotting! Even a trip to the supermarket I hear "simples" being said.

HeiseiHolmes 21 Mar 10 at 12:41 p.m. GMT

You could have the Compare the Meerkat meerkat to make a cameo appearance. He'd say "Is not And Then There Were None! Is And Then There Were NUNS! Simples!" This way, I bet people will want to watch it.

MissQuin 21 Mar 10 at 11:20 a.m. GMT

Meryl Streep would be an excellent as a nun. But admitedly I've been chosing the most unlikely people for the parts. James Franco as a priest! If anyones seen Tristan and Isode they'll know he is really sexy and hardly ever has his top on!!! Not very holy.

It's just the casting with the Maple's has been odd and some people have been wrongly cast. So thats why I was picking people who are unsuited to the roles.

Zeg- Nemesis is a book that I found really absorbing, it is quite dark in parts. I love the tone of the book, its a stark contrast to how the McEwan Marple's were on TV.

sjoerdbol 18 Mar 10 at 2:35 p.m. GMT

To Miss Quinn: You need Speckled Jim, as the carrier pigeon, he's the pigeon that is killed by Blackadder. :) Perhaps Meryl Streep as one of the nuns?

To Zeg: Thank you for the comment. I got the order wrong.

Zeg 16 Mar 10 at 12:34 p.m. GMT

Just a comment referring back to Sjoerdbol's thoughts on Nemesis and Sleeping Murder - Nemesis was Miss Marple's last case - but Sleeping Murder was the last to be published, but it was written earlier and is obviously set a long time before Nemesis.

I really like Nemesis It is quite dark in parts and I think the sens of love as being potentially so destructive is very powerful. I love Miss Marple - I actually prefer her to Poirot - my Favourites are - The body in the Library, The moving finger, Sleeping Muder, A murder is announced and 4.50 from Paddington

monkeyjess1999 12 Mar 10 at 4:57 p.m. GMT

oh yeah im sorry

MissQuin 12 Mar 10 at 3:23 p.m. GMT

Dont forget to add spoiler warnings Monkeyjess, when you reveal a murderer.

monkeyjess1999 11 Mar 10 at 6:24 p.m. GMT

im reading it now it seems really good i just finished the book the murder of roger ackroyd i cant believe the murderer was dr james sheppard the narrarator!

MissQuin 11 Mar 10 at 9:42 a.m. GMT

I love Then There Were None. I just couldnt put it down.

monkeyjess1999 10 Mar 10 at 9:52 p.m. GMT

thats ok miss quin    did you like the story and then there were none

MissQuin 10 Mar 10 at 4:30 p.m. GMT

Oh Micheal Winner is so unpleasant and smarmy! Really not nice. Imagine if he was dressed as pigeon! Or a nun, theres an idea! why one of the nuns turns out to be a man, or is that too much like that film nuns on the run? Robbie Coltraine can play a nun again.

I'm sorry to all people who are only interested in Nemesis. This is way off topic and I accept the blame!

HeiseiHolmes 10 Mar 10 at 4:26 p.m. GMT

I think the guy's name is Michael Winner, in the ad he always says "Calm down dear, it's only a commercial...".

MissQuin 10 Mar 10 at 4:23 p.m. GMT

DC Ive not seen Ensure ad so dont know what you mean. But yes, your idea is seedy enough for the producers. I expect thats the first nun murdered (played by Amy Winehouse!)

Mass murder, as in Catholic Mass... but also mass murder. I like playing on words. Maybe we can fit the cereal murders in there?

HeiseiHolmes 10 Mar 10 at 4:18 p.m. GMT

I HATED Mystery of the Blue Train! You should read it, but don't expect too much.

As for the pigeon, why not have that guy from the Esure car insurance adverts. As it delivers the message, it can say, "Calm down dear, it's only mass murder..." I think a way for the nuns to die would be one nun, who slips a poisoned pill into their mouths during lesbian kiss scenes, poisoning them. Just an idea...

MissQuin 10 Mar 10 at 2:49 p.m. GMT

Monkeyjess, I havent read The Mystery of the Blue Train yet. Ive heard it's not great, but it would be nice to read it, just so Ive read all the Poirot books.

monkeyjess1999 09 Mar 10 at 8:54 p.m. GMT

To miss quin which poirot story did you not read

MissQuin 09 Mar 10 at 4:39 p.m. GMT

Ive realised it will be hard to cast the messager pigeon. All casting suggestions welcome!

AndreaWilkins 09 Mar 10 at 3:05 p.m. GMT

hahahaha i would love to, i'll get my thinking cap on

MissQuin 09 Mar 10 at 12:31 p.m. GMT

Oh thank you Andrea. Would you like to help me with casting?!

Head nun I was thinking of Jane Fonda.

Handsome ex Nazi priest: James Franco

Brief cameo of Camp monk-Christiopher Biggins

We need 11 more nuns...

Yes, I love nemesis. It really moved me.

Monkeyjess- Ive been reading AC for 6 years now. Ive read all but one of the Poirots and all the Marples.

AndreaWilkins 09 Mar 10 at 10:31 a.m. GMT

MissQuin you have a wonderful imagination - i've really enjoyed reading through this blog !! Nemesis is one of my favorite Miss Marple stories. I love that i didn't know  "who done it" till the very end, this book always keeps me on the edge of my seat and i love re-reading my most favorites. At one point i felt sorry for Clotilde, and then in awe at how AC brings Miss Marple in to solve the murder and let justice reign.

monkeyjess1999 08 Mar 10 at 11:32 p.m. GMT

Miss Quin

How long have you been reading Agatha Christie books? I only have since about last year. I got interested in it when my mom said she use to have book clubs for the Agatha Christie books. Do you like and then there were none?

monkeyjess1999 08 Mar 10 at 9:37 p.m. GMT

i think it is good too i like how it is a person who already had an alibi was the murderer i just finished it last night now im reading the murder of roger ackroyd i think its good so far are you reading an agatha christie book?

MissQuin 08 Mar 10 at 6:49 p.m. GMT

Yes, I liked the Murder at the Vicarage. I liked the portrayl of village life.

monkeyjess1999 07 Mar 10 at 7:21 p.m. GMT

I like both detectives, too. Did you ever read Murder at the Vicarage? If you did did you like it because I'm reading it write now.

MissQuin 07 Mar 10 at 2:44 p.m. GMT

Then There Were Nuns is my spoof version of Agatha Christie's Then There Were None. I'm just joking around by writing it on here. Theres been alot of discussions about the TV adaptaions. Marple's Nemesis was remade for TV, but the plot was changed drastically, the 3 main charcaters were switched so that they were nuns! This was very unpopluar!

Also a Nun was added to Poirot Appointment with Death, who never appeared in the book. So theres been alot of jokes about them adding nuns, plus alot of Nazis have been added to the recent Marple adaptations.

Then there were none is an Agatha Christie classic, but it hasnt been remade for film or TV in a long time. There is some fears that TV might turn into into a Miss marple. The books isnt suited to be a Marple, so I wrote a very silly version-with nuns of course...

Favorite detective- well I cant decide between Miss Marple and Poirot. I love them both. I like Mr Harley Quin and Mr Satterwaite as well.

monkeyjess1999 07 Mar 10 at 1:54 p.m. GMT

what is and then there were nuns and who is your favorite detective miss quin

MissQuin 06 Mar 10 at 8:08 p.m. GMT

Then There Were Nuns is set on a small convent on an isolated island... all of the nun's have dark secrets. They start being killed one by one. They don't suspect anything at first and some think theyre being punished by God.

The actresses playing the nuns are all supiciously glamourous women, who look as though theyve had comsetic surgery and botox.

The producers fear that without any men, female viewers wont watch. So they have an amazingly handsome young priest come and visit the sisters on the island. The priest has his own sinister secret, he was a Nazi spy but has now reformed. He has to work out who killing the Nuns before it's too late. He cant manage to solve it by himself, so uses a special messenger pigeon to send a letter to his Aunt Jane Marple. (How Miss Marple's nephew was German Nazi has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.)

It's a tale of passion, madness and Mass murders! Sponsered by Wella hair care products!

My idea needs some work, but it's pretty terrible, but perhaps not terrible enough for prime time TV..

Tommy_A_Jones 06 Mar 10 at 5:06 p.m. GMT

I can see how that woulde work, 10 people find themselves in Mr N Other's Holiday Cottage and before they start dieing Bloor or McArthur or someone see when out walking Miss Marple in another Holiday Cottage on Holiday and invite her round for Dinner where one gets Killed and she stays to solve it and the other's Die but she confronts the Murderer before He/She dies but I would like ITV to do Endless Night or Sparkling Cyanide both of which I don't like so I think ITV would improve them.

go_leafs_nation 06 Mar 10 at 5:03 p.m. GMT

Yes, the nuns do their magic nun dance and turn the unsuspecting heroine into a nun. Dear God, I can actually see ITV doing that.

MissQuin 06 Mar 10 at 4:19 p.m. GMT

Ive no doubt you had plenty to say after the McEwan Nemesis was aired...

It could only have been made worse by having the nun a Judo expert, who kung fu kicks her foes over cliff edges.

Then Appoinment with Death had a slave trafficking nun! What next...? I I think Then There Were Nuns will be the next AC adaptation.

go_leafs_nation 06 Mar 10 at 3:54 p.m. GMT

Aw, that's unfair to Geraldine and the rest of the gang. Think of all the fun times we have mocking Nemesis because of their efforts to make it as ridiculous as possible. Nuns, Nazis, and lesbians (Oh my!)!

That being said, Hickson's improved on some of the book's flaws, such as a seemingly psychic murderer who, if he/she were normal, would not have killed their second victim. My one complaint is that instead of a boulder attack it was changed into a falling bust- the original method was a far more creative way of bumping someone off.

MissQuin 06 Mar 10 at 3:08 p.m. GMT

Has anyone seen the Joan Hickson version of Nemesis? It is so much better than the McEwan version, which was hardly like the book.

In the Hickson version, Clotide? drinks the drugged milk and runs outside. She dies lieing on top of the mount where Verity's buried. I know it wasnt in the book, but it was so well acted and moving.

Lone_Wolf 14 Feb 10 at 7:46 a.m. GMT

However, many things in the book I've found unsatisfying. First, an unanswered question:

How did miss Barrow and miss Cooke realise that Clotilde had been the murderer? They surely realized it, because they warned miss Marple against drinking her coffee. 

Then, the repetitiveness of the book. Miss Marple, like one amazon.com rewiever pointed out, every ten pages or so meets another authority figure and launches into the same exact story all over again about how she met Mr. Rafiel in the Caribbean and how he died and how he went her on a tour. Also, there's much talking to people who at great length repeat information we already knew from before - dialogue that doesn't add much to either the plot or the characterization, that's somewhat endemic in the Marple books. Pity, since while I don't hate Poirot, I like Marple more as both a person and a literary creation.

So, to sum it all up, I liked the theme and the premise, but the writing was problematic in some places. That's why I enjoyed it on a second read, I guess.

Lone_Wolf 13 Feb 10 at 7:53 p.m. GMT

I've enjoyed the novel more at second read. It often happens with me in regards to the Marple novels.

"Nemesis" is a much better title, IMO. Besides empasising connection to Rafiel, it also underlines a powerful theme that goes though the book - the ruthless power of retribution and justice that is posessed by a seemingly unthreatening old village spinster.

"This was the last Miss Marple novel that Christie wrote - is there any sense that this is to be Jane Marple's last outing?"

I know that this isn't supposed to be Marple's last book, but it actually does make some sense. The emphasis on justice delivered by miss Marple would make a powerful final accord.

aquaflute 13 Feb 10 at 1:32 a.m. GMT

Although this is not a too complicated case. I think it is extremely powerful. I love the role Marple plays in this novel. This is actually IMO a similar case to Ordeal by Innocence, where solving the crime and murderer doesn't only bring justice, but also give new life to the innocent that got involved in this.

I also love how AC played with the relationship between Rafiel and Marple. It's really funny but I believe if Rafiel was to be alive in this book they might even get married. It's never going to happen that's for sure, but there were potentials and the connection between these two are very charming IMO.

HeiseiHolmes 15 Jan 10 at 4:14 p.m. GMT

This is such a great book. I especially like any book where Miss Marple is in it for a lot of the time and not just a few parts, because she's so funny (in a good way). I think Nemesis is a better title than the Macbeth one , because it shows the link to Mr Rafiel and also it makes the killer less obvious.

Tommy_A_Jones 25 Dec 09 at 3:30 p.m. GMT

If you don't me voiceing my opinion I think Nemesis is a Much bettedr title for the book as it suggests that Evil hasd tro be thwarted and it jusxt fits the book whereas if you haven't heard of where the title By The Pricking of My Thumbs comes from you would wonder how relevent it is to the book

sjoerdbol 25 Dec 09 at 2:05 p.m. GMT

No, because the latest book to be released was sleeping murder, so I think she intended that Sleeping Murder should be the last novel with Marple.

To Jane: I agree, by the pricking of my thumbs is a better title. It sounds more exciting and tense than nemesis. But I think it still is a great book, one of my Marple favorites.

jane_delawney 07 Dec 09 at 2:11 a.m. GMT

Although I love the title Nemesis (as I love the entire Nemesis motif of this and Caribbean Mystery), I can't help thinking that By the Prickin' of my Thumb would actually have made a great title for this book. There is such an emphasis on the sinister Three Sisters, and at some point Miss Marple even compares them to the Three Witches from Macbeth.