Book Club

Non-Series Novels & Stories

For those of you wanting to discuss Agatha Christie's standalone books, such as And Then There Were None. 

Beware spoilers and remember we'll be able to add the most insightful comments to the stories section. 

If you can't find your favourite one, don't worry, we'll be adding them in the coming weeks.

Warning: These discussions may contain spoilers!

Death Comes as the End

Moderator1 16 Nov 09 at 9:51 a.m. GMT

One of Christie's more unusual books, it is set in Egypt in around 2000 BC.  Renisenb is mourning the death of her young husband and has returned to her father's house to be with her family.  When he brings home the young and very beautiful concubine Nofret it isn't long before the family's strong dislike of her surfaces. Very soon Nofret's body is found at the bottom of a cliff, but did she fall, or was she pushed...

Is this just another Christie murder mystery or has she managed to give it a real twist by setting it in ancient Egypt.  Is she allowed to get away with such a high body count because of the lack of police investigation?

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go_leafs_nation 16 Nov 09 at 1:03 p.m. GMT

Is it really THAT unusual? When AC wrote it, it was. But this is a historical mystery, something which was practically invented by John Dickson Carr (yes, I'm afraid I can't resist putting that in) in his amazing book, The Murder of Sir Edmund Godfrey. It is a study of a famous murder and a political crisis it fueled, and yet, it is written uncannily like a detective novel. Carr and another author (whose name escapes me) were the architects of the historical mystery, and [the other author] considered Godfrey the best of its kind.

That being said, AC does just as good a job with Egypt. The body count is extremely high, but it's understandable, being set when it was, having an insane killer, not knowing who it is, and the lack of police procedure. (Yes, I can just see Lestrade pulling his hair out over the case now...) In fact, it was recalling the pleasure I had over this book that got me really started on Carr's historicals.

The biggest flaw? An extremely convoluted family tree. Keeping track of who is related/married to who and what their relationship with the latest corpse was is maddening at times.

And for some reason, before starting, I thought this book had something to do with an elderly, rich, grumpy alcoholic man not unlike the victim of Hercule Poirot's Christmas. Just thought I'd share that.

Bundle_ 16 Nov 09 at 1:21 p.m. GMT

I didn't know you liked this book, go leafs. It's good to hear. I liked it very much too.

Only the family tree didn't bother me w/ this one, it was the After the Funeral family tree that got me confused.

MissQuin 21 Dec 09 at 10:54 a.m. GMT

I really enjoyed this one. I like the fact the characters are easy to indentify with, despite being from ancient Egypt. I think even if someone loves AC's books, but isnt into ancient history could find it a great read. On the downside, I found it too easy to work out whodunnit!

Read more about this story: Death Comes as the End

Tommy_A_Jones 21 Dec 09 at 1:15 p.m. GMT

How interesting Miss Quin, I had the exact Opposite experience, I admire the Fact Agatha Christie wrote a Book set in Ancient Egypt but |I really couldn't get on weith it, I couldn't warm to the Characters and just felt it less than Enjoyable.

Bundle_ 21 Dec 09 at 2:50 p.m. GMT

Death Comes As The End is one of my favorite AC stories. My favorite subject was already History, but this book really got me interested into Ancient Egypt; since then I love learning about it.

And MissQuin, I agree w/ you the characters are indeed easy to get to know, but I too found the solution far too easy. Perhaps AC did this on purpose as the concept of the book was already so complex that she didn't want her readers to feel too at sea.

MissQuin 21 Dec 09 at 8:04 p.m. GMT

Bundle, I can see your point. I think the pleasure of reading Death comes as the end, is its different to any of her other murder mysteries. But Agatha did still surpise me with this one, as I never thought there would be so many murders!! Plus, I wasnt sure before I read it, it I would like it, but found it a great read.

TommyAJones, I also admire Agatha for having the courage for  taking on such a huge task. Writing in a way that would appeal to people of recent times yet still having the feel of Ancient Egypt.

Nofret 28 Dec 09 at 4:54 p.m. GMT

As you probably know, Dame Agatha did a great deal of research before writing this book. aided by the archaeologist Stephen Glanville. Naturally, what interested her most were the minutiae of family life - how a fairly wealthy household would be arranged, what would the family eat, what was the role of the women, etc. producing a vivid picture of life as it must have been 4,000 years ago.

Having read quite a few commentaries on Dame Agatha's works, one aspect of this novel has always puzzled me. Apparently Stephen Glanville protested against Dame Agatha's original ending of the novel so strongly that she felt obliged to change it, against her better judgement. But what was the original ending?

I received John Curran's "Agatha Christie's secret notebooks" for Christmas, but although he confirms the story of the ending being changed, he can throw no light on what was altered.

This is my guess - let me know what you think

In the novel Renisenb is trappped on the cliff path with the murderer, who is about to throw her to her death. Suddenly an arrow flies through the air, hits him in the back and he falls to his death. Do you think that Dame Agatha, with her passion for justice being seen to be done, originally wrote something like:

His hands were around her throat, choking the life out of her. "Yahmose!" she pleaded to the brother she had always loved.

Suddenly Yahmose stiffened. His hands dropped to his side. He was looking over her shoulder and pointing back up the path.

"Satipy, Nofret, no! No!" he screamed.

He stumbled blindly backwards and fell - down to where the bodies of his victims had lain.

This may have been vetoed on the grounds that the Ancient Egyptians didn't belive that the dead could return to haunt the living. But the arrow in the back, with its reminders of more modern-day weaponry, has always seemed to me to be an anticlimax to this gripping story

MissQuin 29 Dec 09 at 10:46 a.m. GMT

Nofret, I like your idea for an alternative ending!

cameronjhw 17 Feb 10 at 9:04 p.m. GMT

I really like this novel. I was surprised that it turned out to be Yahmose. I suspected Kameni because when he killed the three brothers and married Renisenb he could inherit her father's lands. I often wondered what was Christie's original ending to the novel. I was surprised that Kait was not killed because she becomes a egotisical and controlling woman and I almost suspected her of being the killer. 

go_leafs_nation 17 Feb 10 at 9:34 p.m. GMT

Hurriedly bumping the last post off before someone reads the killer from the Recent posts or something.

WandersFar 18 Feb 10 at 9:46 p.m. GMT

Reading the novel, I had two solutions in my head as to who the killer or killers might be.

The first was how it actually turned out, which I won't go into to avoid spoilers.

The second was this: Henet didn't miscarry. She had her ex-husband's child, somewhere in the North, and he grew up to become Kameni.

Kameni is described as a distant cousin from the North, and Henet is Renisenb's mother's poor relation -- it is possible she could be his mother, then, while still making these descriptions accurate.

Henet takes advantage of Nofret and Satipy's deaths by making it appear as though those crimes, and the ones she will now commit, are related. She is the one who dresses up as Nofret's ghost and poisons the wine. (Remember, Nofret gave her the lion necklace, and Henet was in charge of the linens and all the other domestic affairs of the house -- she could have easily swiped one of Nofret's dyed dresses. The distance from which the slave boy observed her was far enough to disguise her age.) When Yahmose survives, she tries again by poisoning his food (using the slow-acting poison that is suggested). She then drowns the drunken Ipy. She is always lurking about the house and courtyard, and if anyone had opportunity for all of these murders, it is she.

The slave boy is eliminated after he has told his story, to prevent him from being questioned more closely, and Esa is killed when she calls out Henet in front of the others. (Henet wouldn't have known Esa's real target was someone else. Esa's accusation would just make her nervous for her own safety.)

Even Henet's own death could be accounted for, if Kameni became aware of Henet's plan to eventually kill Renisenb (Henet more or less threatens Renisenb to her face, when Renisenb confronts Henet in her bedchamber about the necklace). Kameni might have decided to smother his mother in order to protect his future wife.

WandersFar 18 Feb 10 at 9:49 p.m. GMT

Whether Kameni is aware of Henet's actions or even of the fact that she is his mother, I don't know. It could go either way. He could either be in on it, and his overtures to Renisenb are a calculated move to inherit Imhotep's property after her brothers are put out of the way, or, this could all be his mother's doing unbeknownst to him, and he could genuinely just be in love with Renisenb. (Or something in between: he and his mother schemed to have him inherit Imhotep's fortune, but once he arrives, he unexpectedly falls for Renisenb, complicating matters still further. I admit I like that one the best.) Henet could have committed all the murders on her own with Kameni remaining completely innocent, or he could have had a hand in one or other of them. Either solution is possible.

Regardless, Henet's motive is clear. She hates every member of Imhotep's family, and has done so for a long time. (It is even hinted that Henet may have been responsible for the death of Renisenb's mother as well.) As Kait says, women are the real Egypt. It is through them that inheritance passes, they live on through their children. By eliminating all of Imhotep's male heirs while simultaneously encouraging an attachment between Kameni and Renisenb, Henet sets herself and her child up to inherit all of the family's wealth. After the marriage, she can kill Imhotep and then Renisenb so the lands and property will fall to her and Kameni exclusively.

WandersFar 18 Feb 10 at 9:52 p.m. GMT

As for the first two deaths that inspire Henet to kill, they are a crime of passion and an accident, respectively, but otherwise occur just as described in the book. (I say an "accident" for the second death, as in this scenario, the killer had no plans to kill Satippy. She witnessed the earlier murder and misinterpreted what was going on, leading her to stumble off the path. Nofret's death was also not pre-meditated; the killer was just temporarily overcome with rage after the argument in the hall.) They are unrelated to Henet's ultimate plan, but they provide the necessary background to make the supernatural vengeance angle seem like a plausible explanation. (Similar set-up to "The ABC Murders," actually. A and B are just window-dressing, C is the "real" murder. Here, deaths 1 and 2 are the convenient diversions, whereas the "real" murders occur afterwards.)

When you think about it, the real killer never had any motive to commit the murders. Regardless of whether the people who died lived or not, s/he would have been in about the same place, financially and with regard to his/her status in the family. It really just boils down to insanity, which is a cop-out. If Henet is the murderer, she has means, opportunity, and plenty of motive, (as well as a touch of insanity, if you prefer). It makes for a more "well-rounded" crime.

Finally, consider Hori's method of flushing out a murderer: identify the one person who changes the least. (A true villain would be careful to always appear the same.)

WandersFar 18 Feb 10 at 9:53 p.m. GMT

Satippy, a loud, bombastic woman transforms into a meek and terrified wife. Yahmose changes from a dutiful, hen-pecked husband to a confident, commanding man. Both Sobek and Imhotep lose their swagger, and Ipy devolves from a spoiled brat into a truly cruel tyrant. Renisenb grows up from a naive little girl, into an inquisitive woman more aware of her surroundings. Even Esa has a character arc: she changes from a crotchety old lady who takes pleasure in abusing her slave girls and relations, to someone who goes for pleasant walks outside with her favorite granddaughter, and tells people how much she loves them (she won't even risk her slave girl's life by having her taste-test her food -- she has Henet do that).

Who doesn't change? Who remains the same, serpentine, poison-tongued gossip from beginning to end? Henet.

Thank you for giving me a forum to blurt out my theory, and sorry for the teal deer. I just had to get this off my chest.

Tommy_A_Jones 15 Jul 10 at 4:26 p.m. GMT

My Dad is interested in Egyptology and he recieved a book for his birthday and in it it mentions a Farmer called Hackhinect (I don't know if that is the right spelling) and the book suggests he was the inspiration behind the Death Comes As The End

MissQuin 17 Jul 10 at 5:22 p.m. GMT

Can you check the correct spelling please Tommy? I'm quite interested.

I don't know what the orginal ending was. But I don't know why she had to change it. It it was because it wasn't historically accurate for that character to kill someone, maybe it was orignally Henet.

Tommy_A_Jones 27 Jul 10 at 4:48 p.m. GMT

I will do it tomorrow Miss Quin

MissQuin 27 Jul 10 at 5:05 p.m. GMT

Thanks

Tommy_A_Jones 28 Jul 10 at 4:14 p.m. GMT

I forgot to ask my dad today, I will write myself a note sorry Miss Quin.

Tommy_A_Jones 28 Jul 10 at 4:27 p.m. GMT

Found it Miss Quin Hakanhakt