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Flawed detectives in fiction

ampman 24 Aug 09 at 10:55 a.m. GMT

I was thinking about why I like Miss Marple so much and it is probably because she is so "normal" compared with other fictional detectives. I wouldn't mind sitting next to her on a long bus journey. Sherlock Holmes was a drug addict with manic depressive overtones and Poirot definitely had a nasty case of OCD. I suppose Lord Peter Wimsey was OK but a bit dated now. Imust admit though,remember that I am a lady still thinking of another username, that I do have a bit if a crush on his Lordship. TV detectives of modern times are all flawed. Morse was a depressive alcoholic and that Scottish chap of Ian Rankin's was always in a mess emotionally.  No. Miss Marple stands out as a well balanced personality in crime fiction. Do you agree?

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Tommy_A_Jones 24 Aug 09 at 1:16 p.m. GMT

I am reading some of the stories from Lord Peter Views the Body and I am loving them, I think it is odd calling him dated, I wonder if you are British and wonder also if you call him dated because he is a Lord with a Butler and when people meet him they call him My Lord, Igf you are British I wonder if you would still think he is 'dated' if the Governmennt hadn't started to reform the House of Lords and made everybody else think there was something evil about the Aristocracy, Personally In this ever changing scary world I think all cozy Detective Fiction is dated whether it is Sayers, Christie, P D James Ruth Rendell or Betty Rowlands or Hazel Holt (The last 2 like Christie and Sayers are favourites of Mine), people say a Detective has to be flawed to be worth reading but I dissagree, Miss Marple and Lord Peter aren't and I don't consider Betty Rowlands' Mel Craig or Hazel Holt's Mrs Mallory flawed either.

ampman 25 Aug 09 at 10:38 a.m. GMT

I am indeed British, well English to be precise, and was brought up in a small village owned lock stock and barrell by a geniune Lord who was benevolent and treated us in a kindly manner so I have no grudge against the aristocracy. The world was far less complicated when the class system was still going strong and I feel that it is the rise of the middle classes that has upset the balance of society. You cannot beat true breeding. A real gentleman will treat his daily help in exactly the same manner as he would a countess, I speak from experience.

Back to Lord Peter. I don't think he would translate very well into the present day because there are very few younger sons of the aristocracy that have nothing to do. They all have to earn a living and the heirs are worried about death duties and keeping the ancestral home from falling down. There are hints in the books that Lord P suffered a lot in the war and had bouts of what we would call post traumatic stress so I suppose he is slightly flawed. I get the impression that Dorothy Sayer along with many other ladies including myself fell in love with Lord Peter.

Tommy_A_Jones 25 Aug 09 at 11:17 a.m. GMT

I bow to your superior Knowledgfe of The Whimsy Books I have now stpped reading Lord Peter Views The Body and will read other stories from the Book and other books some other time. I too live in England and not far from me is a Village that was or still is owned by one person, I agree with your Post and I hope you didn't miss understand me as I agree with everything you said.

Bundle_ 25 Aug 09 at 1:49 p.m. GMT

Yes, I agree amp, I think that Dorothy L. Sayers must have really grown to love Lord Peter Wimsey, I think that her character Harriet Vane is an indication of this because she shares some pretty distinct characteristics w/ her.

btw I am currently reading Strong Poison.

Puffinjill 15 Oct 09 at 6:41 a.m. GMT

Dorothy L Sayers apparently based her character, Lord Peter, on a young man (Eric Whelpton) whom she met whilst at Oxford and had fallen in love with. He came home from the trenches prey to nerves and nightmares (just like Lord Peter) and actually treated her rather badly. She must have seen many damaged men at that time and used that all that experience in her writing. In Harriet Vane, she wrote her ideal self and created a world where things could come right in the end for her. I always seem to sense an underlying sense of disappointment in her books as I feel life never held that real passion or joy for her.

Miss Marple is a breath of fresh air in this world of less flawed detectives. Having some kind of problem in personal/professional life seems to be the stock way of writing now, but most of us would admit we all have issues ourselves in varying degrees, so why shouldn't fictional characters? It's very human to have a frailty, but I do think it sometimes encrouches on the story being written too much. Having these traits can help us identify with the characters, and can make them more real.  

3rdGirl 15 Oct 09 at 10:46 a.m. GMT

I'm reading Strong Poison at the moment too! Its great. I love LPW and he's becoming a firm favourite after Mr Poirot.

Miss Marple reminds me of my nana. She was a wiley old bird and knew when we were telling porkies to her! I would definitely agree she's not too flawed, even if she does drink damson gin!

Henning Mankell's Inspector Kurt Wallender from Sweden is particularly flawed. So flawed I can't believe he actually solved the only mystery of his I've read! Most of the modern crime writers are too gruesome for me. I much prefer the old fashioned writers, or those setting their books in the early part of the 20th century.

BTW - a couple of weeks ago we were discussing Wimsey and other novels on a post Puffinjil and Bundle, where has it gone? I'm not on here daily and I like to check up on the posts I've been chatting with people on and they keep dissapearing! The Chimneys post and the short stories one we chatted about have gone! Am I going crazy? :-)

Bundle_ 15 Oct 09 at 12:35 p.m. GMT

3rdGirl

BTW - a couple of weeks ago we were discussing Wimsey and other novels on a post Puffinjil and Bundle, where has it gone? I'm not on here daily and I like to check up on the posts I've been chatting with people on and they keep dissapearing! The Chimneys post and the short stories one we chatted about have gone! Am I going crazy? :-)

Hi 3rd Girl, it's nice to hear from you again. I'm not sure where to look for the post about the other Wimsey thread, but I can find and bump up the topic about The Secret of Chimneys for you.

Puffinjill 15 Oct 09 at 2:30 p.m. GMT

I've found that previous post - it was on a thread discussing short stories and The Blue Geranium in particular.

I feel more comfortable, certainly, with novels set in the past or written in the past. I can find more modern murder mystery literature a little to graphic and depressing, but prehaps that says something about me and what I need. Having said that, I do love Ian Rankin and his Inspector Rebus novels, but I think that has a lot to do with my deep, deep love for Scotland and Edinburgh in particular.

As for everything else I read, perhaps I was born out of my time.

TheButlerDidIT 17 Oct 09 at 2:16 p.m. GMT

I haven't read any Rebus books. But I have seen TV apations. They are quite gruesome and sometimes disturbing but Agatha Christie with the fantasic John Hannah (from the Mummy films. He also was in the adaption of 4.50 from Paddington. Did you know he was Scottish?) know that violence on a scale like the Rebus books would simply alienate the Agatha Christie fans. You thought M Poirot had a severe case of OCD have you heard of an American TV detective called Adrian Monk? Now that is severe. Compared to him M Poirot is as normal as you or me.

Puffinjill 17 Oct 09 at 3:10 p.m. GMT

Don't confuse the Rebus adaptations with the books AT ALL. They don't do the character or the storylines any justice. Ian Rankin writes really detailed, intense books about his beloved Edinburgh and in Rebus has created wonderfully believable (albeit flawed) man. Even Ian Rankin has kept his distance from the adaptations as he feels they don't even begin to touch on the spirit of the books. Reasonable entertainment, but don't assume the TV Rebus is the real thing.

As someone who volunteers with sufferers of OCD (and struggle with it myself too), it always makes me smile when Poirot is described as such. Fussy, fastidious;yes, but obessional? Not really. Beleive me, if he did suffer, he would have problems functioning at all!! I doubt OCD was even recognised as a condition for most of AC's life, so I think his neatness, etc, was her way of giving recognisable mannerisms.  

3rdGirl 19 Oct 09 at 10:35 a.m. GMT

I don't think Mr Poirot has OCD. I think his fussiness and mannerisms were given to him to help show his unique mind and way of viewing the world. 'Order and method'.

Back to Lord Peter, he is indeed flawed in his own way as he is still suffering from shellshock. I have only read the first four books, but there were a few instances where Lord P had to be assisted by Bunter, and had to take a long holiday on the continent to recover his nerves. So I guess that's a physical flaw he has..

PS - Thanks ladies, I found the posts!