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Nemesis

squatty 22 Oct 08 at 5:43 p.m. GMT

I watched Paul O'Grady tonight and he had both Anne Reid and Will mellor on who met whilst filming Nemesis.

They both seemed really baffled about when it is going to be shown.

I know from some of the reviews I've read on here that many people feel it is not up to scratch and the producers have taken terrible liberties with the book. But surely, it still warrants a screening.

Perhaps if it is really as bad as people say it is, it could be shown directly on ITV3 with all the other murder mystery dramas

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40 replies

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devilgal19 21 Mar 09 at 7:45 p.m. GMT

I enjoyed the book(one of my favourite) and the tv/movie although different from the book wasn't all that bad.

squatty 15 Feb 09 at 11:37 a.m. GMT

Re-watched this yesterday and despite the slating its attracted I can see that the writers made a siginifcant change that makes the programme more logical than the book. In the TV episode, the murderer was actually a member of the coach party; in the book, the same murderer didnt actually go on the coach. So, with the book, I was always left with the question, how did the murderer know that certain people would be in certain places at certain times. It is never explained in the denoument. At least, the TV version dealt with these inconsistencies

Tommy_A_Jones 08 Jan 09 at 3:38 p.m. GMT

I agree pghfan but as that is the case at least they should either give the episodes different names or say the episodes are LOOSELY baased on the books.

pghfan 07 Jan 09 at 8:44 p.m. GMT

Good comments GKC--the answers would be interesting, provided anyone was brave enough to give them. Given that some of the adaptations have almost nothing to do with the original story, I wonder if there have been any discussions on just creating brand new stories for Miss M (and Poirot). Not that I would like that, but frankly, we don't seem to be very far from that right now.

Willard 05 Jan 09 at 5:09 p.m. GMT

Maybe you're right, Squatty, about writers and nuns.  After all, Raymond West, when he sees the two sisters arriving for the coach, does say to MM, 'There's something about nuns, don't you think?  All that scratchy black.'

Tommy_A_Jones 05 Jan 09 at 4:54 p.m. GMT

If you are right hobbit in your theory about Stephen Churchett I wish he had told the Producer to give the job of Adapting the book to someone who liked it, I chose to ignor the fact it was based on Nemesis and imagined I was watching just a Murder Mystery, I haven't read the book but have seen the Joan Hickson version and also have the Audio Cassette with among others June Whitfield, David Swift and Thelma Barlow and was sorry that Miss Cooke was not in it and if tyhere nhad to be Nuns (Stephen Churchett using another definition of the word Sister) I wish there had been 3 of them, Also as it was so far removed from the actual book I think there is a case for Stephen Churchett changing nthe identity of the Murderer so if people who have never read the book, watched the JH version or listened to the Audio Cassette wishes to read thebook they can without it being spoilt for them, I also saw the excuse you referred to hobbit and I think it is just silly, surely if you are wanting to start reading Agatha Christie books and be a fan you want to see it done the proper way and if you don't I wouldn't think you would watch surely or am I missing something?

hobbit 04 Jan 09 at 8:28 p.m. GMT

Well, initially I believe the justification they gave for their 'interesting' new plot twists was that they were attempting to make the adaptations appeal more to a modern-day audience (which makes the famous lesbian twist half understandable as that's the sort of thing I believe gets viewers these days). However that explanation seems to have fallen a bit flat, as IMO a total re-write seems to indicate more of a feeling of contempt and derision towards the original work. What writer would be happy with such a demolition of their novel? Stephen Churchett must just have read the novel and thought 'God, what a load of all rubbish this is, I'm not wasting my time adapting THIS' and thought up an idea of his own. I'm sorry but Nemesis was not a 'fresh twist' on the original, but a completely different story with the same title.

Tommy_A_Jones 04 Jan 09 at 1:46 p.m. GMT

I too feel the same way that GKC fan feels and would also like to know why ITV bothered to do the series if they thought they needed to make such drastic changes, surely if they didn't think the books were3 good enough as they are they should have bought something they didn't need changing.

squatty 04 Jan 09 at 12:15 p.m. GMT

With the benefit of three day's hindsight, I know that I enjoyed Nemesis, purely as a piece of two hour escapist entertainment. I have got very wound up in the past by other changes to the original books and like you hobbit, I loathed the GM version of At Bertrams Hotel. I guess that why my response to Nemesis was different was that it was so far removed from the book, that I didnt find myself making comparisons and just watched it as an almost new mystery. And in those terms, I felt it worked pretty well. I do accept the point about the latest version losing the strength of the murderer's love for Verity. I think that is partly down to the script but,as much as I love Amanda Burton, I think it was asking her to act outside her normal range. In the JH version, Margaret Tyzack was utterly chilling but managed to be totally believeable as a middle aged woman who had lost someone she loved dearly. However, I totally understand the opinions about the re-writing of AC's works and I have got the impression in recent Marples and Poirots that the writers are only using the Christie name because they know it will guarantee a sizeable audience. The ammount of disrespect shown to AC is incredible. On a lighter note, I work as a psychotherapist and I'd love to have a session with the current batch of writers about their pre-occupation with nuns. I was reading a review of Appointment With Death and apparently, an unexpected nun appears in that one as well. Nazis seem to be cropping up a lot as well. I wonder if there isnt some private joke going on amongst the producters that is going straight over my head.

hobbit 04 Jan 09 at 11:52 a.m. GMT

This reply contains spoiler information. Show reply

I'm afraid I can't agree with you, squatty. I hated 'Nemesis', not even finding it entertaining but just plain irritating. I personally have no problem with their making changes - I agree the JH versions were very faithful, so there's no need to repeat them. But these changes simply weren't for the better. The introduction of nuns to the story was totally unecessary and added nothing to the adaptation, other than a mindless attack on the Christian faith. The reason I'm so annoyed is because the novel's brilliant love/hate motive gave us true psychological insight into why the killer did what she did - this version, if you hadn't read the novel left you with the impression Clothide was just a nutty nun, who was on God's mission or something... That's where these screen-writers have fallen down I think - they think to adapt a Christie you have to make the plot convoluted and confusing throughout. They don't appreciate the basic simplicity of each crime and each motive. Betram's hotel is another example of where a screen-writer got too carried away with monstrous jazz bands (with Miss Marple all but body-popping to the beat) and a stupidly elaborate charade in the mist. Once again this left us with an extremely confusing finish and unrealistic motive. These changes are not for the better!!! Why can't they judge what will work and what won't? Hobbit

GKCfan 03 Jan 09 at 8:12 p.m. GMT

You know, I would be a lot less prone to whine about changes if I could read an in-depth interview with the screenwriters where they explained 1) why they made the changes that they did, 2) why they believed that certain aspects needed improvement, 3) what they felt they needed to do in order to make their work different from past adaptations (where applicable) and attract a 21st-century audience, 4) their personal opinions on Christie's work and legacy, and 5) what they are trying to accomplish with their work (artistically, socially, career-wise, etc.). If I could understand the motives of the screenwriters, I could appreciate their changes much better.

Tommy_A_Jones 02 Jan 09 at 1:12 p.m. GMT

Marc why should we have to put up with all the changes? I admit I haven't seen last night's 'Nemesis' yet and I haven't read the book althou I have seen the JH version but surely they could do a re-make without doing as carbon-copy, I have seen 2 versions of 'The Mirror Crack'd, 'A Carribean Mystery' and 'They Do it With Mirrors' and in each case they are very similar so if they were to be 'Carbon Copies ' would it matter? I think the fans of an Author have a right to expect the work would be Televised without changes or what's the point of the book being done but I gave up long ago expecting the Makers to car about us or Agatha Christie and I just watch them A) Probably mis-guided loyalty to Agatha Christie and B) this type of Television is so rare these days as there is so much Sport, Soaps and Reality TV televised.

Marc_Anton 02 Jan 09 at 12:50 p.m. GMT

That's the spirit! Why not just enjoy something for what it is instead of nitpicking about 'changes'? After all, since there is already a 'definitive' version of Nemisis, an exact carbon copy would not hold any surprises for me. I enjoyed the new Nemisis too, it is a nice piece of hokum, with some very anoying characters, a plot that is even more complicated (with several loose ends) than the original novel. You don't need to be a Miss Marple to detect several plotholes in this version but hey, does it matter?

david_jones 02 Jan 09 at 11:35 a.m. GMT

I'm surprised, too, that I found myself enjoying last night's "Nemesis" on ITV1. If you hadn't read the book or seen the definitive Joan Hickson version, then it was all good entertainment with good actors and lovely settings. The pity was that it only paid passing reference to the book (unlike the BBC version). For example, how Clotilde Bradbury-Scott was transformed into a nun was mystifying! It's just such a shame that after the faithful Poirot stories with David Suchet, the MISS Marple stories have been changed so much. The changes to the first one, The Body in the Library, were unforgiveable!

squatty 02 Jan 09 at 7:16 a.m. GMT

I can't believe I'm actually writing this but I enjoyed the screening last night. Apart from Miss Marple, there wasn't a single character who remained intact from how they were written in the book but for once, that didnt bother me. In its own way, the plot did hold together fairly well and the denoument felt plausible to me. However, it was a case of dumbing down though. The key clue about the discovery of the piece of straw and the scarecrow wouldnt have been stretching a reader of the Famous Five books. There were a few unanswered questions for me at the end. In particular, why was Johnny Brigg's wife pretending to be Verity and if the real Verity had only gone missing a few years beforehand, why did none of the characters who knew Verity ever reveal she was an imposter?

hobbit 24 Dec 08 at 5:44 p.m. GMT

Either the people working on this site haven't read this thread or they have a very ironic sense of humour! "Starring Richard E. Grant of Gosford Park fame, the film does justice to the very final book Agatha Christie ever wrote..." (if you don't know what I'm talking about look at the site's front page!)

Marc_Anton 24 Dec 08 at 9:46 a.m. GMT

Major, you are right, Raffiel acted as a kind of initiator to launch the story and to send Miss Marple on her track. Only a person with great organisation skills and financial means could fix something like that. Unlike Poirot, Marple did not meet many millionaires in her life so I guess Christie used the one very wealthy person Marple ever encountered and wove the plot about Raffiel's son around this character. The coach tour was a nice idea, it made Marple more mobile, at her age the only alternative for a story was keeping her in St. Mary Mead with the risk of encounter some of the old familiar faces again (nice, but not very suitable for an interesting plot). I always found the idea to stick Miss Marple in the Caribbean a bit forced, it is such an unlikely place to send her to. It can't have been easy for her to get there (no direct flights in the 1960s), why not the south of France, Spain or Mallorca for her to recover?

major_pallgrave 24 Dec 08 at 2:06 a.m. GMT

I think both gkcfan and Marc Anton have made very good points for either side of the was it-wasn't it a sequel debate. I agree with gkc when he says there is a stronger link between these two books than any other in the series. As well as the Raffiels there are brief appearences by several other charachters from the Carribean Mystery albeit through a description of what has become of them in theinterim rather than them taking any active part in Nemesis. Marples constant references to Rafiel and questioning of his intentions as the narrative progresses does constantly remind the reader of A Carribbean Mystery and this serves(rightly or wrongly) to reinforce the link between the two works. I would, on balance have to agree with Marc Anton on this one. If one were to interpret Raffiel's presence in both works as an indication that what we have here are a work and its sequel then the same argument could well be made for The Mirror crack'd being somehow some kind of loose sequel to The Body in the Library through Dolly Bantry's substantial presence in both works and the natural progression of her life and remembrances of the "Library" adventure being described in The Mirror Crack'd. Ultimately i think Raffiel was revisited for use as a "propellar" into the story in Nemesis. A creditable means by which Miss Marple might be found embarking upon a mystery set on a coach tour of historic houses at her by now very advanced years. After all she can't ALWAYS only do things like this because Raymond sends her off for a break!

Tommy_A_Jones 17 Dec 08 at 4:12 p.m. GMT

McGinty I appreciate you are entitltled to your own opinion as I am entitled to mine I just find it odd that you applaud to adaptations that had Miss Marple in when the books didn't, perhaps Geraldine Mkewan's clumsy portrayal is influenceing me as I liked the 2 films Margaret Rutherford did when she played Miss Marple when Poirot is the actual Sleuth. Incidently I have my Television Magazines and Nemesis is on in Britain on New Year's Day.

McGinty 17 Dec 08 at 10:07 a.m. GMT

Winnebago - I can say 'that' because that is how I feel. I'm not saying that Towards Zero and Ordeal By Innocence follow the novels exactly, what I am saying is that they are truer to the novels than Nemesis and At Bertram's Hotel, with or without Miss Marple. Personally I found By the Pricking of My Thumbs to be complete tosh,alcoholic Tuppence included, but appreciate that you have every right to have enjoyed it. At least Zero and Innocence stuck to the story and didn't invent sub plots. I agree with you on one thing, some of the short stories could easily be turned into 90 minute films.