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Nemesis

squatty 22 Oct 08 at 5:43 p.m. GMT

I watched Paul O'Grady tonight and he had both Anne Reid and Will mellor on who met whilst filming Nemesis.

They both seemed really baffled about when it is going to be shown.

I know from some of the reviews I've read on here that many people feel it is not up to scratch and the producers have taken terrible liberties with the book. But surely, it still warrants a screening.

Perhaps if it is really as bad as people say it is, it could be shown directly on ITV3 with all the other murder mystery dramas

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vansittart 22 Oct 08 at 7:24 p.m. GMT

This is timely because I've just rewatched 'Nemesis' as part of the new DVD set. I think it does deserve a screening so that everyone can make their own minds up. For me it remains the 2nd most disappointing in the Marple series (no.1 being 'Sittaford'). I suppose it can be argued that the book has problems of its own, being one of Christie's last works (its actually a personal favourite of mine) but its a model of clarity and sense compared to the latest telly version which is a terrible old mess. I won't go into any details because I don't want to spoil anything but they really have changed an awful lot and not for the better. I'm not a staunch traditionalist; I've actually enjoyed a couple of the more 'changed' Marples ('Sleeping Murder' for one) but for me 'Nemesis' just didn't work! A waste of some good actors.

drdavid 22 Oct 08 at 9:11 p.m. GMT

I too have just watched a complete Nemesis after squinting at the pieces on Youtube and am quite baffled as to what the screenplay writer was actually trying to achieve changing quite so much. It has been reduced to a sort of "Death on the Coach" to compete with the Nile and Orient Express. In its own way it makes some kind of sense but was this production of one of Agatha's greatest late achievements and certainly the book in which the true nature of Miss Marple is revealed that of Redemptive Agent the right way to bring it to a new audience. I think not

McGinty 23 Oct 08 at 11:28 a.m. GMT

When Anne Reid posed the question, I wanted to shout back at the screen 'Because it's rubbish!'. Just like 'At Bertram's Hotel' the screenwriter doesn't seem to have read the original book at all, just flicked through it and got a few pointers and then gone off and written a story about a coach trip, and really nothing else in common with the original story.I've got to put my hand up and say that I've actually enjoyed most of the GM Marples and failed to understand the great hue and cry surrounding them. True, they're completely different from the Hickson's, but really that's no bad thing, there would be no point remaking them otherwise. And I've actually found a couple of them BETTER than the Hickson's - 'The Moving Finger' being a case in point. But then they had to go and spoil them by producing piffle like the Sittaford Mystery, Bertram's and now Nemesis. Makes me wish they'd just left them alone. It's baffling to me that out of the four recent films the two that are truest to the original books are the two that Miss Marple doesn't belong in, Towards Zero and Ordeal By Innocence. Why these, presumably, young screenwriters believe they can write a better story than Agatha Christie is beyond comprehension. I wish they would go and get a job writing for Midsomer Murders instead and leave Christie to someone who would show some respect, not just to the original works but to us, the viewers.

squatty 23 Oct 08 at 5:37 p.m. GMT

On Paul O'Grady, Anne Reid said that she played a nun! I dont remember any nuns from the book. I'm dreading watching this episode when it eventually airs

vansittart 23 Oct 08 at 8:29 p.m. GMT

You're right squatty, there are no nuns in the book but since when did that stop the makers of 'Marple'. I agree with McGinty in that I've enjoyed the Marple series on the whole and have found them a refreshing new slant on the stories, they look good and have terrific casts but there have been a couple of stinkers in there and 'Nemesis' regrettably is one of them. The Joan Hickson version is infinitely superior - indeed one of the best ever of the Hickson films!

go_leafs_nation 04 Nov 08 at 1:25 a.m. GMT

I wonder why the scriptwriters in Series 3 had some sort of obsession with Nazis. Did one of them remember the term from their history class proudly, and decided to include it in their next script?

squatty 04 Nov 08 at 7:06 a.m. GMT

Oh dear. Nazis and Nuns. I suspect a total plot change. Are the three elderly sisters from the manor house still intact?

go_leafs_nation 04 Nov 08 at 10:16 a.m. GMT

Sorry, squatty. The movie butchers just about everything the book was about. There are no more three sisters. They've been A) reduced to two and B) turned into nuns.

The movie has only the same title as the book. There are practically no other similarities.

McGinty 04 Nov 08 at 4:03 p.m. GMT

Don't forget the coach tour ! Oh and there is a character called Jason Rafiel. But yes squatty, this is a totally different story to the one Agatha Christie wrote. It sort of reminds me of the old Margaret Rutherford films. Except not funny.Or worthwhile. Hopefully it will never get shown on television!

go_leafs_nation 08 Nov 08 at 1:40 a.m. GMT

The one good thing MARPLE did (strictly script-related) was have Kevin Elyot as a screenwriter. He adapted DEATH ON THE NILE and FIVE LITTLE PIGS for Poirot; TOWARDS ZERO, THE MOVING FINGER, and THE BODY IN THE LIBRARY for Marple. I realise the last one had a change that outraged fans, but the script until that point was completely faithful to the book.

drdavid 14 Nov 08 at 8:12 p.m. GMT

there seems to be quite a trend in literature as well as tv of invading books and re arranging them. On television recently was Lost in Austen and I read The Eyre Affair which had a similar idea. I feel that the scriptwriters of Nemesis have invaded the book and taken up a few of the original ideas from the Christie novel ~ one that I have always held in great admiration considering she was in her 80s when she wrote it and it is a fairly complex plot that is neatly tied up and I beleive the only actual sequel Christie ever wrote~ and fabricated the rest. To be fair a similar invasion was made in the Hickson version where a totally fabricated nephew Lionel accompanied Jane on her coach tour and appeared to end up happily with Michael Rafiel. The McEwen version is worth seeing as it is so beautifully photographed and if for no other reason should make you return to the book again

Marc_Anton 15 Nov 08 at 5:59 a.m. GMT

I guess they needed a side-kick for Miss Marple in the Hickson version because so many pages in the novel have Marple reflecting on the mystery just being by herself, going over her own mind and the following the various threads of her investigation. It would be very difficult to film that. Well, actually, it could be done but I think it would be a bit too sophisticated for the average Christie-public. Think of the novel The Hours, everybody said it could not be filmed and it was, and beautifully too. I did not like the 'happy ending' of Nemisis, it was very teevee, the ending in the novel was more wise and realistic.

Since this a not a film post, we can discuss novel AND TV-version. I liked the novel too, the plot is complex indeed and it is a kind of cumulation of various plotting techniques Christie used over the years: murders in the past and present, a mix-up over bodies, twisted love-hate (never been done to this extreme by Christie). It also gives a good picture of Marple getting (and feeling) really old, something Christie must have felt herself at that time.

McGinty 27 Nov 08 at 1:31 p.m. GMT

For those in the UK who have yet to see this episode, ITV will show it the sunday before Christmas

Willard 09 Dec 08 at 5:34 p.m. GMT

Nemesis is now scheduled for New Year's Day at 9.00pm on ITV.

Tommy_A_Jones 10 Dec 08 at 4:09 p.m. GMT

In the paper it said Nemewsis was being shown before New Year, What I would love to know is why was it made BEFORE A Carribean Mystery? I admit I have not read either book but Didn't Miss Marple first Meet Jason Raphael in A Carribean Mystery and Why did the BBC and ITV show Body In The Library before Murder At The Vicarage which was published earlier?.

GKCfan 14 Dec 08 at 10:04 p.m. GMT

In any case, the Joan Hickson Miss Marple series filmed "Nemesis" before "A Caribbean Mystery." too.  Part of the reason might lie in the location- it costs more to film there, so it was put off.  In the Hickson story, Rafiel is just given a brief backstory (Miss Marple refers to an old case and says "We were allies...").  In the McEwan version, there are so many changes to the Rafiel backstory and father/son relationship that the chronology doesn't matter.

Marc_Anton 15 Dec 08 at 9:55 a.m. GMT

This topic comes up every year. Nemisis is NOT a sequel of A Caribbean Mystery, at least not the way sequels mostly go. After all, the main character (apart from the murderer) is the son and not the father, and since the son wasn't even mentioned in 'Caribbean', you can not speak of a sequel. The books are so unlike and one can be read without any knowledge of the other. Even the apreciation is different: 'Caribbean' is the ideal vacation book ('A Christie for the beach!') while a lot of readers find Nemisis very gloomy and even dull (I am not one of them). A word about the Hickson-version: Michael Rafiel was very 'Prince Charming' and I found the ending rather Hollywood (Cinderella DID go to the ball).

GKCfan 15 Dec 08 at 9:38 p.m. GMT

I agree that the "Nemesis" isn't really a sequel of "A Caribbean Mystery" any more than "Mrs. McGinty's Dead" is a sequel of "Cards on the Table" because it brings back the character of Mrs. Oliver. But I think there is a stronger connection between "Nemesis" and "Caribbean" than any other pair of Miss Marple novels because it is a continuation of the theme of Miss Marple as Nemesis. It's a major psychological and character development for her because she explores why she detects and her reasons for doing so. These two mysteries are the only ones where Miss Marple has to do more than just solve murders. In "Carribbean," she not only has to save a character's life, but also that character's sanity. In "Nemesis," much more so than the other retrospective-murder novel "Sleeping Murder," Miss Marple has to correct an interpretation of the past and exonerate someone.

GKCfan 15 Dec 08 at 9:46 p.m. GMT

(continued) In short, Miss Marple, in these stories, serves as more than just an identifier of the guilty; she is a protector of the innocent as well. If we accept "Sleeping Murder" as being set in the 1940's or 1950's chronologically, by "Nemesis," Miss Marple has shifted her views on justice for cold cases considerably. Before, her attitude was "let well enough alone." By "Nemesis," she has not just a "Murder will out" attitude, but also a "justice MUST be done attitude." I think that there are two primary transformational influences on her character. The first is her adoption of the role of Nemesis in "Carribbean." The second is the fact that she was unable to save the life of a friend in "Pocketful of Rye."

Tommy_A_Jones 16 Dec 08 at 4:37 p.m. GMT

McGinty, the Writers think they can do better tyhan the books because the Television Executives let them probably with an inducement that if they do they will have something of their own work televised and how you can say that TOWARDS ZERO and the other one you mentioned are more faithful when they should not have had Miss Marple in I don't know, I was so dissapointed with TOWARDS ZERO, I liked the Scotsman in the book and was real;ly angry Battle wasn't in it, Why is it that He hasn't been portrayed since Harry Andrews played him in SEVEN DIALS when there are Actors who could play him really well, My favourite MARPLE Episode that should not have had her nin was BY THE PRICKING WITH MY THUMB which I enjoyed along with A MURDER IS ANNOUNCED and BODY IN THE LIBRARY. Lets hope they will improve when Julia McKenzie takes the role, Not that I blame Geraldine Mkewan, although I do think an actress of her Calibre should have stood up to the Makers and insisted on doing them properly and not doing ORDEAL BY INNOCENSE, TOWARDS ZERO, BY THE PRICKING OF MY THUMB and THE SITTORFORD MYSTERY, I would have preferred them to stretch out the short stories but I think I am in the Minority in that way.