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Post title: Us of Nursery Rhymes

squatty on 25 Nov 2008 at 11:34 a.m. GMT

I've posted this in the Marple section but it could quite as easily have gone in the Poirot section.

I am undecided about AC's use of nursery rhymes in many of her books. Sometimes, they seem to add something to the plot, whilst on other occassions they feel terribly forced.

For example, I've never quite understood the use of Sing A Song of Sixpence in A Pocketful of Rye. I found that the rhyme helped me guess the solution quite early on. Why would the murderer draw attention to themselves in such an obvious way? The connection with the blackbird mine may never have been made if it hadn't been for the murderer signposting their crimes in that direction.

Another example is Five Little Pigs. Trying to fit the five suspects into the nursery rhyme is very contrived.

This sounds like a critical post, and its not because there are many times when I find the use quaint and amusing.

What do others think?

 

squatty on 07 Dec 2008 at 11:37 a.m. GMT

I agree with you Major to a point. The murderer was a vain psychotic who probably thought he was being extremely clever by introducing the nursery rhyme connections. Also, the level of humiliation in the manner of the murders (especially the clothes peg on the nose) is very chilling.

 

major_pallgrave on 07 Dec 2008 at 2:51 a.m. GMT

Show/hide reply with spoiler

I wonder if the killers construction of the series of crimes being set to the nursery rhyme in APFOR was deemed plausible by Christie from a phychological point of view because of the killers sense of utter rejection by the first victim and the tremendous anger and disdain that were bourne from that rejection and the shattering blow that it was to the killers self esteem. The killer wanted to take everything from those who made him feel an outcast and to humiliate and toy with them in the process. The airy nursery rhyme like the pleasant smile hiding the pent up rage that lurked beneath.

 

pghfan on 02 Dec 2008 at 9:26 p.m. GMT

I just stopped in for the first time in some many months. I will second GKC's comment that the Harley Barley rhyme does not ring a bell with me as being in the Christie canon. And I have read and re-read pretty much all of it many, many times. Its good to be back and read from some familiar contributors.

 

HarleyBarley on 30 Nov 2008 at 8 a.m. GMT

GKCfan, Thank you for actually telling me that! I completely understand its context in the story, but I was just wondering about the rhyme. Oh, and as an afterthought, I remember the 1st line: "Harley Barley stands on guard". Thank you once again.

 

GKCfan on 29 Nov 2008 at 9:14 p.m. GMT

JessieL, I can't find any reference to the "Harley Barley" rhyme anywhere outside of the Christie story. That does not mean it doesn't exist: it could be an adaptation of another rhyme (Christie referenced a lot of anonymous regional poetry in her work), but in the context of the story it's just a reference to a scarecrow with a passing resemblance to Mr. Quin.

 

HarleyBarley on 28 Nov 2008 at 3:50 a.m. GMT

There is one rhyme I don't get at The Harlequin Tea Set. Is it a nursery rhyme? Harley Barley (forgot the line) / Harley Barley takes things hard / Guards the ricks & guards the hay / Keeps the trespassers away. Er - help?

 

Marc_Anton on 27 Nov 2008 at 9:14 a.m. GMT

You ask yourself what the intentions of the murderer in A Pocketful of Rye were to use this rhyme as a 'theme' for his/her actions. I can understand the reasons of the murderer in ATTWN but wouldn't it have been better (for the killer I mean) to do his killings WITHOUT the rhyme? Perhaps the murderer could have got away with it in the end. Now the rhyme served as the key to the solution and Miss Marple was smart enough to see through it. Aaaah... but then, this is fiction and plotting and I guess the nursery rhyme served as an little present from Christie to the readers, they love it!

 

squatty on 26 Nov 2008 at 7:23 p.m. GMT

I think there is a difference between the use of the rhymes in And Then There Were None and A Pocketful Of Rye. In both novels the rhymes were introduced by the murderer. However, in ATTWN the murderer wanted the crime to be discovered and to have the posthemous glory. Im APOR, the murderer clearly wanted to escape detection but set up the rhyme in such a way that all the evidence pointed to him. Detectivepauljohn - forgive my terrible error of posting this in the wrong section. I cant seem to do much right at the moment - I'm either grossly offending people by mentioning a character's sexuality or starting a thread in the wrong section. I give myself 2/10

 

detectivepauljohn on 26 Nov 2008 at 9:21 a.m. GMT

And Then There Were None is the nursery rhyme of Ten Little I. One by one, they begin to die

Five Little Pigs...about five suspects?

Hickory Dickory Dock

It shouldn't be in the Marple section anyway. It should be in non-series books and characters.

 

GKCfan on 25 Nov 2008 at 4:05 p.m. GMT

I believe that in "Hickory, Dickory, Dock," Poirot does think of the rhyme because the youth hostel is on Hickory Road. I think that in the middle of the book, Nigel says, "Hickory, Dickory, Dock / The Mouse ran up the clock. / The police said "Boo!" / I wonder who / Will eventually end in the dock?" In the two cases where the nursery rhyme is integrated into the plot by the killer (And Then There Were None, A Pocket Full of Rye), I think that it's an important psychological clue: which character would revolve the crimes around a children's poem?

 

Marc_Anton on 25 Nov 2008 at 12:32 p.m. GMT

I think we can be critical too. The genre Christie excels in often expects us to accept certain situations and solutions that go against our normal logic. So it is interesting to find out where Christie crosses the line of 'reality'.

In my opinion the one novel where the Nursery Rhyme is used to its full advantage is And Then There Were None. Here the rhyme really operates as the machine of the plot.

Other novels use a variation on this (A Pocket Full of Rye); a murder scheme follows the pattern of the rhyme. In books like One Two, Buckle my Shoe the verses are used only as chapter heads. They (loosely) fit and follow the plot. It is always remarkable that the only one in the books who spots a resemblance between the rhyme and the events around the murder is Poirot himself. Since when is he so familiar with English nursery rhymes?

The same with Hickory, Dickory Dock though (if my memory serves me right) not even Poirot mentions this rhyme; it is used only as an intro and to give the book a title.

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