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Television and Film

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Hercule Poriot Christmas

Passion_For_Crime 06 Nov 08 at 5:54 a.m. GMT

I like this story and I never see or hear people say they like and i was woundering if I was the only person who really liked the story. I like a lot of AC other books but I am reading this one at the moment.

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Marc_Anton 15 Nov 08 at 6:35 a.m. GMT

DrDavid, what do you mean by 'unnecessary rearrangement of the narrative'? It would be interesting to discuss that, I just love narrative perspections. And I agree, we should discuss novels and adaptations separately, though it is sometimes difficult, I know. But there are various sections on this Forum to do so.

Since this is the film-section: it was interesting to see a bit of the earlier life of Simeon Lee, though perhaps it was a bit too long. But it made a nice contrast to the warmth of the other continent and the Christmas atmosphere of England in December. It even had comic relief! The funiest bit was Inspector Jap suffering under the endless singing of Christmas carols, mercifully he was freed by Poirot.

drdavid 14 Nov 08 at 8:44 p.m. GMT

I have a great fondness for HPC because I remember as a teenager reading it at Christmas in a large English country house and we were actually cut off by a snow storm! It is very much a book and we need to decide sometimes whether we are discussing books or other people's adaptations of them. Agatha was a great fan of puzzles and crosswords etc and she wrote puzzles to be solved at the reader's leisure rather than in a 90 minute slot. I found the Suchet atmospheric but hurried with an unnecessary rearrangement of the narrative

Tommy_A_Jones 14 Nov 08 at 4:41 p.m. GMT

Marc I l,ike the ratings, I like to see how different people rate books, I find it interesting, you don't have to read them if you don't want to I chose not nto take part in the gues the quote games which is I am entitled to so if you don't like the ratings don't read them and let others who like them do what they want to.

lady_horbury 14 Nov 08 at 5:16 a.m. GMT

I liked the Poirot's Christmas movie very much, but not at first.  I had to watch it a couple of times to be able to appreciate it more.  I thought the lighting was too dark, at first, but I got used to it.  I liked the characters, though they are a very disfunctional group!

If you are looking for another Christmas Poirot story to enjoy this holiday season, try Theft of the Royal Ruby.   It is even more Christmassy than Poirot's Christmas.  The entire story is set around a Christmas gathering in a family setting.  Poirot is invited to the gathering and the outdoor scenery is snowy and cold, the Christmas tree is decorated, the Christmas pudding is stirred by all and takes a central role in the story, there is beautiful Christmas music at the church and my favorite carol is sung, O Come All Ye Faithful!  The children are excited as expected and there is a place for young and old.  I love the game of charades!  A typical English Christmas, but with a mystery, of course!  Tell us what you think of it!

GKCfan 09 Nov 08 at 9:09 p.m. GMT

I think that Poirot would agree with you about simple murders being best, Marc Anton– remember Poirot's comments in "The ABC Murders" about his ideal crime to solve, and how it was essentially a preview for "Cards on the Table."

Marc_Anton 09 Nov 08 at 12:22 p.m. GMT

Thank heavens for that! Yes, the method in Death on the Nile might have worked, but just. Another one is One Two, Buckle My Shoe, it is so complicated and you need a very specific time table to really 'get' it, since it stretched over a period of several weeks (I think). And what about Evil under the Sun, also a plot with a high risk of failure: again a few clocks, the risk that you actually could have been seen during the establishing of the alibis. For me, the most simple murders are the best!

squatty 09 Nov 08 at 11:35 a.m. GMT

Dont worry Marc - my tongue was in my cheek when I suggested another poll. In HC's Christmas, the murderer went to those extraordinary lengths to provide himself with an alibi. There are many other Chrities where the setting up of an alibi has been fantastic but still believable. (I would actually include Death On The Nile in this category). For me, the use of the inflatable pig stretched credibility too far.

Marc_Anton 09 Nov 08 at 7:22 a.m. GMT

Goodmorning GKCfan, I just got up. Mmmm....I am not so sure about the 'cannonbal attack', I can't really imagine how that works and if it would be succesful (it didn't work in this case). Did you ever try to put something over a door and then get OUT of the room? It is perhaps a sign that the murderer wanted to use only very complicated methods, with a high risk, and yes, this sort of attack did tie in with the first murder. So for me the way they changed this in the TV-version was more believable. One of my problems with the book was that it used a lot of 'props' and not so much psychological deduction, in that way I found it very oldfashioned and it rather stretched my acceptance. But you are right, the TV-version ruled out Pilar as a suspect but she was not a serious contender in the book anyway (at least not for me).

GKCfan 09 Nov 08 at 6:52 a.m. GMT

This reply contains spoiler information. Show reply

Speaking of "panic murders," since this is in the "Television and Film" section, I would like to point out a change in the "panic murder" in the TV version of "Hercule Poirot's Christmas." Instead of Pilar being attacked by a cannonball on top of her door, the killer clumsily clubs her with an African weapon. I think that the change might have been due in part to some critical complaints: in "A Talent to Deceive," Robert Barnard argues that the cannonball booby-trap was not credible, because there was so little chance of it working, and it was so clumsy. I can see the justice in this perspective, but I think that the change is for the worse. First of all, it's a bit of a stretch that the killer would botch the murder, although it's credible. I think the change was a mistake because it eliminates Pilar as a suspect, unless we suspect conspiracy. Pilar could have set up the cannonball herself, but the camera angles prove that she couldn't have arranged her own clubbing. I thought that the booby-trap tied in nicely with the first murder. What do you think?

Aurora 08 Nov 08 at 5:19 p.m. GMT

I think that Agatha never believed in "The Perfect Murder" so she always pushed those who planned to extreme out of their comfort zone. Not only does it make a better read but it fits better, morally, for most readers. Let's face it, the world would't be a good place if you could Prince2 a murder!

Marc_Anton 08 Nov 08 at 3:48 p.m. GMT

Please no more polls! More endless lists without any motivation or content! And no more ratings too!

Instead let's discuss the interesting point you bring up: the similarity between A Murder is Announced and Death on the Nile. Both start with carefully prepared murders that needed a great deal of 'scenario' but both were also at risk that if only one little thing went wrong, the entire enterprise would fail.

But the other murders that followed, like the one on Miss Murgatroyd in AMiA and on the maid Louise (and Mrs. Otterbourne) in DOTN were highly improvised, because they were so called 'panic' murders. So in both cases the murderer needed a calculating mind AND considerable 'sang froid'. The murderer took great risk and yet nobody noticed it. While the 'original' murder eventually showed some cracks in the entire scheme which eventually lead to Poirot and Marple solving the crime.

The same in Hercule Poriot Christmas (to bring the topic back to its origin): the original murder was well prepared but the attack on Pilar was just out of panick.

squatty 08 Nov 08 at 3:13 p.m. GMT

Marc - I love your posts; they are always well thought out and add a new slant to the argument. I know this is going off topic but reading your post, I'm struck by a similarity between Murder is Announced and Death On the Nile. I agree with you that in both books, the original murders are highly "prepared". However, the follow up murders in both books are much more immediate and frantic and both are the acts of desperate people, which is slightly at odds with the careful planner of the first murders. Perhaps we should have a poll of "most unbelievable murder". Whilst I agree that HC's Christmas was complete hokum, I am more forgiving of the other two books.

Marc_Anton 08 Nov 08 at 12:10 p.m. GMT

The plot was not unrealistic: a nasty wealthy old man who holds the strings of the purse; Various family members who bear a grudge against him and who need the money for various reasons. And this in a big country house during the holidays. All the ingredients for a classic murder mystery! Christie has used this situation many time before (and after) in her books.

No, I found the murder method unecessarily complicated. The murderer went to a great deal of clutter with a high risk of things going wrong. I think a good forensic team would have solved the crime in half the time. Why not just kill the old man, lock the door and leave? Less risk and hardly any clues for Poirot to investigate and question. But I guess that is the formula of crime fiction.

That brings me to the next point: there are two types of murder method in Christie's work. The ones that need a great deal of preparation and plotting: Hercule Poriot Christmas is one; also A Murder is Annouced and Death on the Nile (and many others). I always found those highly unconvincing, though they make a nice puzzle. They read well but when you look at them more close it is a lot of hokum. They owe a lot of their credibility to sounds, time tables, clocks, and other objects. 

There are others where the murder method is so simple (for Christie that is) that nobody even thinks it could have been done like that because it was so obvious: Peril at End House, Sleeping Murder, Five Little Pigs, The Hollow. All you need is to MAKE people believe it was done like that, create a faulty vision so to speak. I find those more interesting and convincing (and modern). 

squatty 07 Nov 08 at 3:02 p.m. GMT

I dont think the plot was unrealistic - it was a typical AC at her best when dealing with complicated family relationships. However, I do agree with Marc that the actual murder method stretches credibility too far. The fact that the victim was murdered by the murderer and for the reason he committed the crime are totally believable but it was a very bizare method to use

Passion_For_Crime 07 Nov 08 at 8:06 a.m. GMT

I Thank you both for your replys i agree GKCfan but I do not agree fully with marc I mean I think the family were very interesting and Lydia was one of the best she was elequent and mysterious she added a nice touch to the story. Also the plot is not unrealstic it is a good and just one. But every one has there own opion thank you for your replys.

Marc_Anton 06 Nov 08 at 4:10 p.m. GMT

GKCfan, interesting to learn the book was so limited available in the US, I didn't know that. Perhaps the publishers considered it as a novel only for the Holiday Season, it wouldn't sell during the summer.

By the way, why is this novel discussed in the Television and Film section?

I agree, it is an enjoyable book, I have a few problems with it though. The murder method was....well.... what can I say? Unbelievable might be the right term? There are so many reasons why I didn't buy this, though I will not mention them not to spoil the book for new readers.

I found the characters a bit colourless (the family members I mean, especially the women), perhaps that is inevitable when the victim is such a powerful character.

It was lacking in Christmas atmosphere but perhaps that is unavoidable too, I mean, with a murder in the house! Nobody was really in a festive mood, no nice dinners, though they started decorating AFTER the murder took place! ('Let's brighten up the place, with a corps upstairs!').

Since this is the Television and Film section: The Suchet version was rather good, at least with more Christmas atmosphere than the book (though the snow looked very fake, all those green trees in the garden). The brothers were not looking very alike (this is an important part of the plot). The scream sounded like one of the pipes in the bathroom being unblocked, this is important in the plot too. But in the end at least someone (I think it was Lydia) excused for the lack of real Holiday Spirit.

GKCfan 06 Nov 08 at 3:38 p.m. GMT

I like the book a lot, and we're not alone in this opinion. "Christmas" is one of Christie's highest-regarded novels, although in America, for several years it was hard to find in bookstores because although it was not technically out of print, fewer copies of it were available than other titles of hers.